More about traditional jackets

**Liam** · 30th December 13, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by McMurdo

The dirk can still be carried formally, though I suspect it is not carried as often as it once was. Here is a photo of me from a few years back giving the Address to the Haggis on Burns night. As I was about to dispatch the wee beasty I was wearing my dirk.

Great picture Glen....

**Farmer Jones** · 30th December 13, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by McMurdo

The dirk can still be carried formally, though I suspect it is not carried as often as it once was. Here is a photo of me from a few years back giving the Address to the Haggis on Burns night. As I was about to dispatch the wee beasty I was wearing my dirk.

And you look so good doing it.

**Nathan** · 30th December 13, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Farmer Jones

Attachment 16116 What has changed since then is that the formal jacket is now a PC, and the dirk belt is not used with that. That would mean that the dirk also is no longer carried formally.

As you may have deduced from McMurdo's photo, there is more than one kind of formal jacket now. The PC is a popular choice, but there is debate about whether it is formal enough for white tie. It certainly appears that it was in the 30s when it was conceived, but many treat it like a tuxedo today which is a step below formal in the British sense.

Here are a couple of other formal jacket options for you to examine that are still worn today.

AGM_Final_sm.jpg

MacLeodofMacLeod1.jpg

new doublet.jpg

**Farmer Jones** · 30th December 13, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Nathan

As you may have deduced from McMurdo's photo, there is more than one kind of formal jacket now. The PC is a popular choice, but there is debate about whether it is formal enough for white tie. It certainly appears that it was in the 30s when it was conceived, but many treat it like a tuxedo today which is a step below formal in the British sense.

Here are a couple of other formal jacket options for you to examine that are still worn today.

AGM_Final_sm.jpg

MacLeodofMacLeod1.jpg

new doublet.jpg

Yes you are quite right. There has been a steady evolution and a differencing seems to be taking place between the perceptions of formality in various places. There seem to be two distinct paths to this evolution. One deriving from the military and the other from civilian styles, with aspects of both influencing the other. The belt and dirk go well with the jacket derived from the doublet, but not at all with the one derived from the tuxedo. Which I assume, is why everyone insists that the belt is not needed and not desirable with the PC. On the subject of the dirk, in one of the earlier images it shows the sgian dubh in the right sock and the dirk on the left side. To me that seems natural, as opposed to wearing them on the same side. The reason being, I live in the bush and carry a boot knife as a last "claw" in emergency, but am used to drawing my large knife with the right hand across my body, when I have to cut through small trees and branches. It is one movement to draw and hack. So with the military derived jacket, and belt over it, when I see a large knife on the same side as the dominant hand, it just does not have the same defensive capability. Now, I understand that it has become a fashion thing that harks back to the warrior past, and that no one uses this knife for defensive purpose anymore, it just seems more correct to wear it on the other side. It seems in some of the images I have seen that the carrying of the dirk on the right is associated with pipers. Of course there is the possibility that this is done to seem less aggressive, to make it look more like a decoration, than the weapon it actually is.

**Nathan** · 30th December 13, 10:15 PM

I don't wear a dirk so I'll leave it to others to discuss its placement, but what I can point out is that there's nothing wrong with wearing a belt with a PC, the problem is wearing a belt with a waistcoat. Most people wear the three button waistcoat with their Prince Charlie Coatee and this makes the waist belt superfluous. If you prefer to wear the belt, simply leave the waistcoat home and the belt will serve as your cummerbund if you will.

The Montrose and Kenmore doublets were more or less designed to be worn with the waist belt over them as they are always worn closed. Most any jacket that is worn open can be worn with a belt, so long as you forgo the waistcoat/vest.

Many feel that wearing a dirk is over the top today, although in cases such as McMurdo's, where he is about to address a haggis, it's perfectly acceptable.

Interesting thread and observations, Farmer Jones.

**Farmer Jones** · 31st December 13, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Nathan

I don't wear a dirk so I'll leave it to others to discuss its placement, but what I can point out is that there's nothing wrong with wearing a belt with a PC, the problem is wearing a belt with a waistcoat. Most people wear the three button waistcoat with their Prince Charlie Coatee and this makes the waist belt superfluous. If you prefer to wear the belt, simply leave the waistcoat home and the belt will serve as your cummerbund if you will.

The Montrose and Kenmore doublets were more or less designed to be worn with the waist belt over them as they are always worn closed. Most any jacket that is worn open can be worn with a belt, so long as you forgo the waistcoat/vest.

Many feel that wearing a dirk is over the top today, although in cases such as McMurdo's, where he is about to address a haggis, it's perfectly acceptable.

Interesting thread and observations, Farmer Jones.

Thanks Nathan, as you can tell I am only learning. Members in here have been a terrific source of inspiration to think and learn about our recent history. The clarification about the waistcoat makes lots of sense.

**McMurdo** · 31st December 13, 07:17 AM

I think it is also important to point out that I am left handed therefore as Farmer Jones points out my dirk is on the other side shown below:

Here are some other examples albeit older photos both showing the dirk on the right side it is also worth noting that these examples appear to show doublets and Mess Dress not a Prince Charlie:

**SFCRick** · 31st December 13, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by McMurdo

I think it is also important to point out that I am left handed therefore as Farmer Jones points out my dirk is on the other side shown below:

That is the side for Right handed Soldiers since your sword would be at your left hip and you would not want them to clash together. Once the sword was drawn in the right hand the left could draw the Dirk easily. I still wear mine (when I do very rarely these days) at my right side.

**McMurdo** · 31st December 13, 08:30 AM

Right you are SFCRick and you would be one to know.

**Farmer Jones** · 2nd January 14, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by SFCRick

That is the side for Right handed Soldiers since your sword would be at your left hip and you would not want them to clash together. Once the sword was drawn in the right hand the left could draw the Dirk easily. I still wear mine (when I do very rarely these days) at my right side.

Oh right on. Thank you for that. Now it is obvious.