What would you do?

[Steve Ashton]

X Marks is today the largest and most active on-line community dedicated to the kilt.
As you can imagine, I am approached on a weekly basis by companies wishing to advertise here.

I have always tried to hold true to Hank’s original idea of a forum where the kilt was the only focus. All the advertisers here are makers or sellers of kilts and kilt related products. There are no Google ads, and no flashing random ads for new cars or cellphones.

X Marks is also unique in that there is a personal two-way communication between the advertisers and the membership. Each advertiser has their own forum section where they may post news and announce sales. Each member may ask questions of the advertiser directly and may post comments about the products and service.

Over the years this forum has built a reputation. We are known all over the world for the polite and respectful way our members treat each other. We have also built a reputation that those companies who advertise here have a history of treating their customers with the same level of honesty and respect.
Our members have come to personally know and trust the advertisers here.

This level of honest business practices, among those who advertise here, is one of our greatest strengths. I even had an idea a few years ago of instituting an “X Marks Seal of Good Business Ethics”. Think of “The Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval” for kilts.

This brings me to the reason for this post.

I would like to present to the membership a few questions. I would like to ask you for your thoughts and comments.

Over the years there have been many instances where our members would post warnings about companies who have taken photos they find on the web and are using them on their own website and in their advertisements. In some cases these photo are of another companies products and may not be the actual products produced or sold by the advertiser.

We all know that some fabric weaving companies publish photos specifically for use by companies who use their fabrics. Lochcarron is probably the most famous for allowing companies, who make kilts with their fabrics, to use their photos.

But what about cases where a company does not have permission to use the photos from another company? If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company?
Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here?

How about copyrights and patents? As you may or may not know copyrights and patents are effective only in the countries where they are filed. It may not be against the law to copy a design of another company, with a UK copyright, if you are not operating in the UK.
We have all seen the Utilikilt knock-offs that are sold all over the world. The Utilikilt Company holds a US Patent on their design. Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?
Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here?


I know and understand that these questions are of an ethical nature. Business practices vary in different countries. In some countries it is not only completely legal, it is expected, that one company will produce virtually identical products of another company if they are finding that it will sell.

A company doing so is not breaking any laws. This makes my questions a matter of ethics.

So, my final questions are to you, the members of X Marks.
Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?

[Jock Scot]

I personally rarely ever look at the advertisers here. I personally take responsibility for my decisions and actions and expect others to do the same, however life tells me that my expectations are not the same as others. As far as I am concerned price is not a consideration, it is first and foremost quality that I am looking for, followed closely by service. I might add, that living in Scotland I am probably unlikely to need to purchase kilt attire etc., outwith the UK, so perhaps I am not really the person to ask?

So as far as I am concerned, it is entirely a matter for you Steve to recruit whoever you choose to make this website work for you and then, ultimately for us all. So without knowing the inside business details of this website and frankly I have no need, or wish, to know, I am perfectly happy to leave those details to you.

If I may add one more thing. You have done fine well for me and as far as I know, almost everyone here. Otherwise, how else would this website be where it is in the league table? Yes I know the members, mods etc.. all help create Xmarksthescot to what it is today, but it is you who provide the means to do it and I for one, thank you for it.

[Holcombe Thomas]

I agree with Jock, save that I often look at the advertisers' sites. I am interested in quality and service first, then price. i would be inclined to not purchase from someone who ignored copyright or patent protections, even if "merely" in an ethical, vice legal, manner.

We have all seen, and some of us have experienced, the problems occasioned by ethical lapses in sellers. That fantastic price isn't so great if the goods do not arrive. I would wonder if a seller's ethical lapse in using someone's photos or designs, without permission, just might extend to ethical lapses in actually filling my order.

My admittedly somewhat limited experiences with our advertisers have been nothing but positive. I like that I deal with people I "know." The good reputation is hard-earned.

And I very much agree with Jock: Thanks, Steve, for what you do for us.

Holcombe

[bricelythgoe]

Unlike the others, before I started my company I would ALWAYS come to this forum to search for info about where to buy things. My thoughts would be no.

[Phil]

Like Jock, I really have no interest in advertisers sites and source my clothing where I have always done. I am somewhat intrigued, however, by the tenor of this post which seems to suggest opening the door to questionable practices being condoned by advertisers here. I seem to recall my posts here being plagiarised in the past so is this something which we may perhaps now come to expect?
If commercial interests are indeed going to dictate the content of this forum then it is, perhaps, time to evaluate ones participation here. I await with interest how this will develop.

[tpa]

Whilst price is very important, the old adage of you get what you pay for still holds true in most cases and any hint of unethical behaviour would be sufficient for me to hold off or put my money elsewhere.
I'll also add my thanks for what you do for us, Steve.

[artificer]

As an (albeit minor) advertiser here I thought I'd toss in my $0.02.

Your questions in BOLD, my answers below.



If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company?
No. Theft of other's IP is a deal-breaker. Thieves are rarely ONLY dishonest in one single area. If they're stealing from someone else, they're at least as likely to steal from me.

Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here?
No, ideally. I like to think that Xmarks sets the benchmark for internet civility. Why do we want to invite thieves to our house party?


How about copyrights and patents? As you may or may not know copyrights and patents are effective only in the countries where they are filed. It may not be against the law to copy a design of another company, with a UK copyright, if you are not operating in the UK.
We have all seen the Utilikilt knock-offs that are sold all over the world. The Utilikilt Company holds a US Patent on their design. Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?
Ideally no. While legally there may be no protections across borders for copyright and patent, it again boils down to an issue of character. The company that takes another creator's design because it is legal to do so is displaying
a lack of both their OWN inventiveness as well as a sorry lack of ethics.

Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here?
No. See above.


I know and understand that these questions are of an ethical nature. Business practices vary in different countries. In some countries it is not only completely legal, it is expected, that one company will produce virtually identical products of another company if they are finding that it will sell.

A company doing so is not breaking any laws. This makes my questions a matter of ethics.

So, my final questions are to you, the members of X Marks.
Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard?
I hope so.

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks?
No. Additionally, making a product that is not protected in one country and shipping it to a country where protections exist IS a violation of patent/copyright.


Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder?
No.

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?
Price is a tricky beast. Inferior products will (unless you're planning on throwing it away eventually anyway) end up costing most people more in the end when they
are replaced do to defect or buyer disappointment.

Are there 'deals' to be had? Absolutely. But I'd argue that a real VALUE deal is much rarer than we'd all like it to be.
I'd rather buy once and eventually hand it down to my son than buy something crappy 3 times. Even if it means I save for several years between purchases.

ith:

[be da veva]

Being a stay at home dad, my budget is limited. Does that mean I'd go see some company making a cheaper version (both moneywise and qualitywise) Because they advertise here ? No.
If I want to buy a kilt locally here, prices start at around 1200$ CAD. For a little more than half of that price, I can get a Newsome tweed kilt, a Tewksbury tank or any other from great kilt makers we have advertising here. Same goes for accessories. This forum is great, has the best kiltmakers, the best sporan makers, etc.... It's an elite club with the greatest deals on the best stuff. Why cheapen it with low quality stuff ? This is the best kilt forum? Then let's keep the best makers.
This said, I know that money can sometimes be hard to get. If it is a money concern that brings this up, maybe a viable option can be a donation section. A lot of members have a paypal account (or similar). You might be surprised at how many people would donate to this forum if it was easy to do. I know that when I have only a few dollars (or cents) in my paypal account, I leave it there until I get more. Sometimes it's there for a year.... I don't donate to charities on line, I do it live and often. But I could donate my paypal leftovers here.

My 2 (Paypal) cents.

[Stan]

I'm not happy with companies that "rip off" photos that were produced by others, and because I'm not a Utilakilt wearer the specifics of a copy right infringement issue doesn't concern me much, because on that issue I'm not voting with my $$.

I have purchased about 7 kilts from some of the companies the advertise on this forum, but I found them via other web searches, and started my "retail relationship" with them prior to joining Xmarks.

I view this form (and it's membership, as well as it's advertisers) like family, or "clan members". I respect them, and in that respect for them I'd feel poorly about having them (the merchants) come to THIS forum, and see an advertiser who didn't respect their legal rights as much as any other "family member" would.

I've had a lot of great help, and good tips from the kilt makers, and merchants on this forum, and that friend ship (and spirit of friend ship) goes a long way in the weighing of price vs price when I consider continuing my "retail relationship" with these Xmark "advertising" merchants.

My vote is for keeping the "loop hollers" off the site. The web is a big place, and they can do what's "legal" out side of OUR house, while we can continue to do what's right (in my opinion) inside it.

That's my 2 cents worth.

[Nathan]

Most of the things I buy are so traditional that patents aren't really an issue for me. Price is an issue for me but I'd rather buy a vintage piece of high quality attire than a cheap option that won't stand the test of time. If you're patient, It costs about the same or less but you get way more bang for your buck. I also like to make my own kit when possible.

I think people come to this forum for trustworthy information about kilt wearing. If you let untrustworthy and unscrupulous vendors sell here then you're undermining the legitimacy of the site as an authority.

Sell the ads you need to in order to meet your costs etc... but If you have the choice between a legitimate company and an unethical fly by night operation, I think the choice is clear. I have purchased from xmarks advertisers and have been very happy with the experience each time.

I don't know if a particular advertiser has crossed a line regarding photography or ripped off another design, but I hope not. that would be disappointing. I'd certainly like to see an accurate depiction of what I'm getting.