What would you do?

[be da veva]

And a very heartbreaking one when it is alleged that one of our members has, and continues to, infringe on another companies copyright.

I'm sorry, this is new to me. Is this the reason for this thread ?

[davidlpope]

I'm sorry, this is new to me. Is this the reason for this thread ?

I'm also perplexed. At the risk of sounding impertinent, why the need for this long thread? If one of the members/advertisers here is using another's photos without permission, just call him out in public. We've never had a problem here using public condemnation to enforce ethical behavior. Enough with the cloak and dagger, already...

[California Highlander]

And a very heartbreaking one when it is alleged that one of our members has, and continues to, infringe on another companies copyright.

If it is verified, and not merely alleged, that a member is violating the copyright of another, the member should be warned and if the member continues to use unauthorized materials, then the member should be suspended from XMarks.

Copyright, trademark, and patent are confusing for many, both in what is protected and what can be used, and under what circumstances can that use occur. Perhaps the member just doesn't know or has incorrect information about what usage is allowed. Also, some companies will claim "violation" of copyright/trademark/patent as a way to halt competition. That may or may not apply here, but does need to be investigated.

[unixken]

If it is verified, and not merely alleged, that a member is violating the copyright of another, the member should be warned and if the member continues to use unauthorized materials, then the member should be suspended from XMarks.

Conversely, to have any meaningful legal footing, it must be the copyright/patent/trademark holder, who pursues action to defend their intellectual property. If the facts are clearly on the side of the IP holder, and that holder chooses to take no action (or simply fails to take action) to defend their own IP rights, a court in some jurisdictions would likely say that the protection that would have been offered is now null and void.

If the villagers, with their pitchforks and torches, go after the original "violator", where effectively no violation or "theft" has legally occurred (because no action was taken by the protected party), the villagers may then find themselves on the wrong end of a defamation, libel, or other such suit, brought by the attacked party who originally stole the IP. With every post, thread, or message used as evidence.

Be careful when reaching for the farm implements.

[ASinclair]

Conversely, to have any meaningful legal footing, it must be the copyright/patent/trademark holder, who pursues action to defend their intellectual property. If the facts are clearly on the side of the IP holder, and that holder chooses to take no action (or simply fails to take action) to defend their own IP rights, a court in some jurisdictions would likely say that the protection that would have been offered is now null and void.

If the villagers, with their pitchforks and torches, go after the original "violator", where effectively no violation or "theft" has legally occurred (because no action was taken by the protected party), the villagers may then find themselves on the wrong end of a defamation, libel, or other such suit, brought by the attacked party who originally stole the IP. With every post, thread, or message used as evidence.

Be careful when reaching for the farm implements.

I'm confused. If I post that I do not want an unethical scumbag advertising on this forum, I can be sued? Steve, can you step in here and clear this up, please?

[TheOfficialBren]

Technically it would be libel rather than slander.

[artificer]

I'm confused. If I post that I do not want an unethical scumbag advertising on this forum, I can be sued? Steve, can you step in here and clear this up, please?

No, unixken was saying that if IP isn't defended it is technically fair game, so while the thief is still an unethical scumbag, if they AREN'T challenged by the IP holder they are technically in the clear.

Saying that you don't want unethical scumbags here is one thing, actively calling someone out for it and chasing them away when the IP holder chooses not to take action could technically be actionable.

Copyright/trademark/IP in general is a nightmare of legal BS in the USA, and it only gets more messed up when it becomes an international issue.

ith:

[ASinclair]

No, unixken was saying that if IP isn't defended it is technically fair game, so while the thief is still an unethical scumbag, if they AREN'T challenged by the IP holder they are technically in the clear.

Saying that you don't want unethical scumbags here is one thing, actively calling someone out for it and chasing them away when the IP holder chooses not to take action could technically be actionable.

Copyright/trademark/IP in general is a nightmare of legal BS in the USA, and it only gets more messed up when it becomes an international issue.

ith:

Thanks, I feel better now (I think).

[Steve Ashton]

Ken asked me to step in here so I will.

First of all, there will be no witch hunts on X Marks. No vigilantes, not mobs with pitchforks. That is not what this thread is all about.

I agree that there are legal issues here but as this is the internet about 99% of those legal issues are still being decided in the courts. What is enforceable on the internet will be occuping many lawyers for many years. The legality of stuff is also not what this thread is about.

Except were it applies to this privately owned forum. I must abide by the laws where this forum is registered. British Columbia, Canada.

While I'm stating all this perhaps it would be a good idea to state so everyone understands that this is a privately owned forum. I, and I alone, make the decision to sell advertising space to whom I choose. It is also me who says how this forum will be run. The buck stops with me and I take full responsibility for it. I do have the OFF button.

When it comes to ad space on X Marks let me say this. There have been other kilt forums. Some were provided totally free, some sold memberships, some sold ad space. That was the decision of the owners of those forums.

All of the members here want to know about what is available out there. That is one of the big reasons we all come here. So Hank, the guy who started X Marks made a decision to sell ad space to pay the bills. Nick, Rocky and I were the first three advertises. In that order. We realized back in those early days that X Marks had the potential to be something different and took a chance.

Now, almost 15 years later, the kilt world has changed. When I first got into kiltmaking there were very few on-line kiltmakers. There were a few retail outfits on the web but most kilts were sold from brick and mortar shops.
And then something happened.
Sailkot Pakistan has been a major manufacturing center for almost a hundred years. If you want to buy surgical or dental instruments or sporting goods like volleyballs or shuttlecocks the chance that they were made in Sailkot is pretty good. If you own a garment made from cotton or a polyester blend I can just about guarantee that the fabric was woven in Pakistan. Sailkot has also been making highland wear for almost as long.
When the Gold Bros. began their small stall in Edinburgh they brought in almost everything from Sailkot. Fridge magnet bagpipes and teddy bears with Tartan scarves. Clan crests and every thing imaginable.
Then they began to bring in kilts. Now, understandably the Pakistani's do not have a lot of experience with Scottish culture. They did not and still do not understand what this is all about in the way we in the West do. Different culture. But their kilts sold. In huge numbers. The reason was simple, price. At the time the average kilt in the city of Edinburgh sold for about £300.00 with some shops advertising prices up to £800.00.
Well, the average tourist to Scotland had never worn a kilt and usually had never actually handled one. To the average tourist they see a plaid fabric garment and think kilt. They see £600.00 in one shop and see £80.00 in another and the decision was pretty plain. They had no plans to wear the kilt more than once or twice, and then only as some form of costume. It was their "Scottish outfit" for their local Highland Games or Halloween.
The success of the sales of Pakistani made garments caused a boom in manufacturing. Today there are literally hundreds of companies offering Pakistani made Highland wear. All you need to have is a web presence with the word kilt in it and soon you will be receiving emails on a daily basis from these companies. They offer kilts for as low as $45.00usd, sporrans for $5.00 and Ghillie Shoes for $20.00 a pair. These companies will set you up in the kilt business. They will ship you everything you need. Product, website, marketing, everything. You can be in the kilt business for less than $1000.00usd.
You can run this business out of your basement or garage. All you need is to put your website on line and an account with the post office. The orders will come in. Guaranteed.

As you can imagine this influx of less expensive goods caused quite a bit of concern to those already in the business. The tourists are going to the less expensive shops and the old names are feeling the pinch. Fist fights have broken out on the High Street of Edinburgh. New legislation has been proposed to control the import and sale and in some places, it is claimed, that lives have been threatened.

Right now, on this forum, there are members who believe that if it is not 100% made, and worn, in Scotland it should not be allowed to be called a kilt.



OK, to the reason for this thread......

I too am approached by the companies in, and selling, Pakistani, Chinese, and former Soviet countries who want to advertise on X Marks.
It is up to me, and me alone, to accept or reject those companies.

So I came to you, the members here, to ask you opinion.

Some of the non-Scottish companies do not have the same business practices. It is not illegal to make a product that is an exact copy of a product of another company. Even if that product is under copyright or patent in another country. Those copyrights and patents do not apply. It is not illegal to sell those products in a country not covered by the copyrights and patents outside of the country where the copyright or patent is filed.

Can someone make an exact copy of a Utilikilt in Brazil and sell it in the UK? Yes they can. And Steven Villegas can't do anything about it. (It is happening right now.)
Can someone buy an Argyle jacket made in Hungary and sell it anywhere they want? Yes, and that is happening too. Totally legally.

But I have received more than one request from companies who wish to advertise on X Marks. In more than a few instances these requests come from companies that are offering products that are almost exact copies of products under copyright in the UK.

But here is the sticky part. There are no current international laws governing business over the internet. It really is the wild west.

What we are finding is that if you are in the kilt business, and go to a trade show in Scotland, you will not see new products out on display. It is known for a fact that within just a few moments someone will walk by with a cell phone, snap a pic of your product, and within a few weeks containers of almost exact copies will arrive at the ports.

Is this legal? Well to tell you the truth, I can't answer that. I'm not an international internet lawyer.

What I can do is come to you, the members of X Marks and ask for your opinions. Where do you want me to draw the lines?
I can ask for your opinions about what you wish me to do if I find that a UK copyright is being infringed by a US, Canadian, S. African etc. company buying products made where those copyrights do not apply?

This is why I focused on ethics. This is why I worded my questions the way I did. To me, this was not a simple exercise to generate discussion on a forum.

This is why I am asking you, the members, directly. What do you want me to do in these instances? Where do you want me to draw the line? What sort of companies do you want to see among the advertisers on this forum?

[Hawk]

Thank you for the clarification Steve.

My opinion, for what it's worth is in #17 on this thread.

Hawk