Which tartan for MacClive?

[figheadair]

I do know Phil although I haven't seen him for several years. He is still alive but age catches up on us all and I understand he is not too well these days and I doubt very much that you’d get a satisfactory answer to an enquiry but you could try. Unfortunately I don’t have his current contact details.

My comment was based on first-hand knowledge of some of Phil's research for Tartan for Me (TFM), probably 25-30 years ago now, when he travelled around Scotland and used the local telephone books as a source for names which he then associated with local Clan and District tartans. I recall Alasdair Campbell of Airds, the clan historian's, outrange at a number of names being associated with the Campbells which he knew from personal experience were families that had recently moved to the area from outside Scotland. Taking one generation living in an area some 250 after the end of the clan system as the basis for clan association is not a reasonable justification.

Phil Smith also used many of the previous historical lists in drawing up TFM, which my father used to call 'Tartan for Everyone'. The book met a need at a time when people were increasingly interested in researching Scottish ancestry and continues to do so but it needs to be used as a generic guide and not taken as gospel. Unfortunately the trade often do just that as it helps them sell more stuff. Good for them but as a historical resource TFM is seriously flawed IMHO.

[Nathan]

Well MacCorquodale,

I think I've gone as far as I can to help you unravel the mystery. It is indeed possible that your family emigrated to Scotland after the end of the clan system. I think it is also possible that your family name is derived from Mac Leibhe/Dunnsleibhe. The thing is that I'm only deducing based on similar looking words and while this is solid enough logic to pursue a lead, the theory has not been corroborated to my satisfaction. The fact that the Scottish MacLeays/Livingstons and Irish MacLeaves/MacLevees/DunLevys both claim to derive their name from "Dunnshiebhe" is worth looking into but I seem to have hit a dead end based on Peter MacDonald's (figheadair) post above.

If you go with an Ayrshire district tartan, nobody can fault you for that. That is where your family comes from in Scotland and you know that for sure. Many families from Scotland were not part of the clan system and there is no shame in not belonging to a Highland clan.

If you choose Stewart of Appin, you can always point to the fact that it is on a published list, but you would seemingly be building your house on soft ground and passing on a tradition in your family that may turn out to be erroneous.

If it was me, I'd design and register a MacClive tartan and pay to have some woven. That way the next time some MacClive somewhere on earth went looking for his tartan, he would find it.

Best of luck Mr. MacClive!

[figheadair]

Of course the other option would be to wear the MacCorquodale tartan, a variation of Wilsons' No230 or Argyle.

[Nathan]

Of course the other option would be to wear the MacCorquodale tartan, a variation of Wilsons' No230 or Argyle.

That's interesting. The OP said, "my Great-grandfather, on my Grandmother's side, is a MacCorquodale". Would you really recommend a tartan associated with a great grandparent when he has a paternal alternative with a recent known link to Scotland?

I find it interesting to know how these traditions are interpreted by different people. Where I grew up, you always went with your father's side, unless he wasn't of Scottish origin. In that case, people either found affinity with the Cape Breton tartan, the Nova Scotia tartan or their mother's name.

In addition to MacDonald, I have in my recent lineage MacNeil, MacInnes, MacDougall, Gillis, Thompson etc... but I wouldn't wear those tartans because I'm a MacDonald.

[figheadair]

That's interesting. The OP said, "my Great-grandfather, on my Grandmother's side, is a MacCorquodale". Would you really recommend a tartan associated with a great grandparent when he has a paternal alternative with a recent known link to Scotland?

I think that's an easier question for those of us with strong Highland surname connections to answer. For others it's very much a personal choice and I would never question their right to identify with a particular ancestor, just not more than one clan, although many do.

[MacCorquodale]

I guess I never did make it clear that the Great-grandmother is my father's grandmother if that makes any difference.

I also wonder how are we sure that the MacClive listing with Appin comes from the phone book?

[Nathan]

I guess I never did make it clear that the Great-grandmother is my father's grandmother if that makes any difference.

I don't think it makes a difference. If it were me, I'd just wear the tartan associated with my surname, given that it comes from Scotland, even if its history in Scotland is possibly comparatively recent. As Peter points out, there is certainly a social taboo against mixing the symbols of more than one clan as sometimes the two clans were not allies but it's your clothing and your family and you ought to choose whichever association you feel closer to.

It's only my opinion. You have a surname that starts with Mac. Many who wear kilts and tie it back to a distant ancestors aren't carrying names that evoke a Gaelic heritage so immediately. If your surname was Kowalski and your nearest Scottish Ancestor was a MacCorquodale, I'd say go for it but given the fact that you have a provenance in your family that the ancestors that gave you your name were MacClives, I'd either honour their district or invent a tartan. The second option is admittedly more expensive. As Peter points out, you can proudly wear MacCorquodale if you like since that is your closest Highland connection. It's your decision to make.

[MacCorquodale]

Not trying to be a jerk or anything but I have seen Mr. Smith's credentials and they seem impressive. Why are we to just throw out his research based on an opinion of it from someone on the internet?

Forgive me please If I am completely out of my lane.

[MacCorquodale]

Also, the Scottish Tartans Authority also seems to point to Stewart of Appin, is this site not one to be taken seriously?

I'm getting a bit confused here.

[Nathan]

Not trying to be a jerk or anything but I have seen Mr. Smith's credentials and they seem impressive. Why are we to just throw out his research based on an opinion of it from someone on the internet?

Forgive me please If I am completely out of my lane.

You can choose to believe his research or not as it suits you.

I should clarify who that "someone on the internet" is because he is likely too modest to do so. Without casting aspersions on Mr. Smith, figheadair's (Peter MacDonald) credentials rival those of anyone involved in the study of tartan. Mr. MacDonald has been consulted by museums, films and more for his expertise on the subject and he worked with Mr. Smith at the Scottish Tartans Authority. If he says that the Smith book is looked at cynically in academic circles, I would trust his judgement. There are economic motivations to linking everyone who wants to buy a tartan with a tartan that can sometimes play fast and loose with history. The very notion of a tartan for every clan is revisionist history itself although it has caught on over 200 years.

Peter is cited all over the Scottish Tartans Authority Website and you can find out more about his work here:

http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/

Mr. Smith may be correct. He might have used the same logic as I did linguistically or found some other compelling evidence but if the Stewarts don't have any record of McClives in their history and the Campbell of Airds was upset at having names erroneously "attached" to his clan by Mr. Smith, I'd look for some corroborating evidence. You've been looking for 20 years, and I've been looking for a few days and so far, there's nothing out there to substantiate Smith's claim beyond doubt.