Argyle sutherland kit

[Fireboykirk]

Brilliant stuff guys! I have most of those photos in file already. The sporran for the piper was a new bit of intel. Thank you everyone. And I apologize OC. My spell check Did me wrong with the Argyll/argyle. Thanks for your help.

[macwilkin]

Just as aside, whilst the regiment's name is "Argyll", the district in Scotland known as "Argyll" was once known as "Argyle" as well. My great-great-grandmother's tombstone in Iowa lists her as being born in "Argyleshire, Scotland."

T.

[Fireboykirk]

OC Richard, I'm looking to complete a A&S pipers kit, corporal or Sgt, from 1914-1915. Did everyone wear the grey undershirt? when did putees replace the spats? And when did the diced hose tops get replaced with the green/olive hose?

[georgeetta]

yes sorry ..going to Toronto or such was to find how the original Scottish ..had this or that ..

they may be different in their own gear .

there is an argylls book out .

again you can go to the argylls sites for the regt ..ask their historian.

th
dave

in 1958 CYPRUS
they have the various outfits ..
guard duty
formal
piper

I've seen guys in fatigues with toss's ..shirts
dress kilmarnocks on guard and kilts and web belt no sporran
full dressed pipers
in shorts on patrol ..shirtless ..socks ..ammo boots I'd've called them ..
slr's
tartan trews in the NCO's mess ..
dress dinner jackets and trews ..for dinner ..

th
d

in the argylls book they had guys in Ireland ..marching in feather bonnets ..white jackets ..kilts ..hose spats ..footgear ..enfields or snyders ..

th

[Downunder Kilt]

OC Richard, I'm looking to complete a A&S pipers kit, corporal or Sgt, from 1914-1915. Did everyone wear the grey undershirt? when did putees replace the spats? And when did the diced hose tops get replaced with the green/olive hose?

It is really dependant of where you were. If you were stationed in ole Blighty, then you could of feasibly been provided with full kit all the time. If you were trench side, then whatever the QM could supply or what you could scrounge. I would hazard a guess that once you were posted overseas, you would be wearing whatever the infantry wore, but replace the trousers with a kilt and kilt apron

[Fireboykirk]

I think I'm going to go for this....image.jpg

It fits what I have in mind. I know the sporran isn't a pipers version, but I recently read an article where the piper was wearing the "swinging six", because it was the only one left in the kit bag. I've been in that kind of situation. Lol. You just gotta make due. Besides, it's a combat uniform, won't have it on that often, AND the piper version is damn hard to find.

[OC Richard]

I think I'm going to go for this....image.jpg

It fits what I have in mind. I know the sporran isn't a pipers version, but I recently read an article where the piper was wearing the "swinging six", because it was the only one left in the kit bag. I've been in that kind of situation. Lol. You just gotta make due. Besides, it's a combat uniform, won't have it on that often, AND the piper version is damn hard to find.

Yes that kit would be great. Be aware that the pipers' kit would be different:
- the hosetops are red & black, not red & white as for the rest of the battalion.
- the glengarry is plain, not diced as for the rest of the battalion.
- the pipers' sporran is completely different.
- pipers tended to wear the black leather waistbelt and crossbelt with silver fitments, and even the dirk, at times when the rest of the battalion would be dressed as in that photo.

About it being 'a combat uniform' well yes the same Service Dress jacket, and kilt, would be worn both for walking out and combat, but the rest of the kit might change, with the khaki apron, full canvas equipment, steel helmet, etc for combat. The kit in that photograph is, rather, what would be worn for walking out.

About sporrans, there are a few things:

-it was not uncommon for the kilt to be worn without sporran during WWI, even in Britain. After seeing hundreds of photos of WWI soldiers dressed for walking out without sporrans, I wonder if many of the men were never issued them. However pipers were a special case and would wear the old Full Dress sporran, sometimes, at times when the rest of the battalion would be without sporrans, and even wearing kilt aprons.

-I have seen a couple curious photos showing pipers wearing the non-pipers ORs sporran, for example a photo of a piper of The Black Watch during the Boer War wearing the ORs' sporran rather than the pipers' sporran.

There's also a 19th century photo of a group of the Argylls and in the background there's a guy playing pipes but wearing the 'swinging six' ORs' sporran rather than the grey pipers' sporran. Not only the sporran, but his entire uniform, hosetops, doublet, and Glengarry, are those worn not by the pipers but by the rest of the regiment. Thus the man is not a piper of the regiment but evidently a member of the Regimental Band (he's wearing bandsmans' shells) who happens to play the pipes. This photo appears in Regiment Magazine, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders Part II, and the caption says "A recruiting part of the 1st Battalion in Scotland 1894".

But AFAIK pipers weren't issued two Full Dress sporrans (pipers' and ORs') but only the one pipers' sporran, so wearing a hair sporran other than the pipers' style would not normally have happened. Not to put too fine a point on it, but to wear the uniform of a piper but to wear the nonpipers' sporran would look farby.

I have seen both the complete Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders pipers' sporran, and only the cantle of same, show up on Ebay, but rarely. It's possible that L&M Highland Outfitters could make one for you (they make them for the Canadian military).

As far as the footgear goes, ordinarily it was diced hosetops & khaki spats for Service Dress in the 1914-1915 period. I don't know when khaki hose and khaki short puttees replaced them, but it is fairly common to see both mixed in the same photo at least early in the war, and also diced hosetops worn with the puttees. All these things can be seen both in photos taken in France and photos taken back home in Britain in professional photography studios. (In other words it wasn't a simple case of "diced hosetops and spats at home, khaki hose and puttees in France".)

Here's another photo of a piper in WWI Service Dress to show the general appearance, though this is a Gordon. Note he's wearing the ordinary ORs' sporran, not the pipers' sporran

[Domehead]

L&M Highland absolutely can reproduce this item for you.

They reproduced an OR's sporran from our family. I sent them six images: one each my Uncles Davey & Charles extreme close ups of the cantle; four images of an auction lot of the same sporran showing the gilting, a leather work. What they returned is beyond qualification.

What we don't know is if the sporran belonged to my Aunt Rita's father John, whom served with the Seaforth Highlanders in Mesopotamia WWI (the "Lawrence of Arabia" rescue) or someone from my Great Granda's family, up Blairgowrie way, just prior to the turn of the 20th Century.

Ryan

[Fireboykirk]

I did know about the diced hose difference, but the plain glengarry is new to me. I've found a couple of pictures that show pipers playing at the front, or just back a bit, and they have a fairly hodge-podge collection of uniform parts. The sporran and a box pleat Black Watch are the challenge now. I think I have found the resources for everything else. I guess the real importance is trying to be as accurate as possible and showing the respect the Regiments, and their pipers, deserve.