Black tie and white tie for kilts?

[Jack Daw]

TPA, that is a great photo of you and your wife. Congratulations on a wonderful day.

Jack, so, are you saying that white ties are for dead people who do not stay dead? (By the way, loved Dracula, movies and book.) Have a good week.

Naw, I'm saying Dracula may have been a blood-sucker, but he knew to wear white tie only after 6 (since he couldn't roam around during the day).

[kiltedtom]

Jack,

Very good point.

Happy new year to you.

Tom

[artificer]

In reply to the Black Tie Guide referenced in a previous post. I would hardly count this as a reference source for wearing the kilt when they say in their opening paragraph -

"Scottish evening dress traces its roots back to the seventeenth century and is as diverse as Anglo-American black tie, if not more so. Consequently, this page is only intended to serve as an introduction to the topic. It does so by repeating the descriptions in the Wikipedia "Highland Dress" article (which has improved considerably since the previous edition of the Guide) "

The section on highland dress in the Wikipedia article was actually edited into the Wikipedia article long after it was written by an X Marker who I don't think is even active here any more.

I certainly never claimed that it was the be-all-end-all definition for either black or white tie Highland wear, but I do maintain that it's a fairly good place to start.

From the article on Black Tie:

JACKET
•black barathea kilt jacket:
· Argyll, Braemar jacket (least formal, see note following)
· Prince Charlie jacket (the most popular)

· regulation doublet

alternatively, a black mess jacket
there is some contention about whether the Montrose doublet or Sheriffmuir doublet are too formal for black tie; they should be worn with the accompaniments described for white-tie equivalents.

WAIST COVERING
•matching waistcoat, low cut and fastened with three Celtic buttons

Wikipedia also states that the waistcoat can be tartan (as shown in the Lowland Dress photo below) but that option seems to apply only to the Argyll jacket or Sheriffmuir doublet

SHIRT
•white shirt with shirt studs, French or barrel cuffs, and a turndown collar (wing collars are reserved for white tie in most locales)

NECKWEAR
•black bow tie

FOOTWEAR
•evening dress brogues:

· buckle brogues (tongue-less brogues closed with a strap and decorated with a buckle on the toe of the shoe) are most formal

· ghillie brogues (tongue-less brogues with long laces that wrap around the lower leg and tie above the ankle) are less formal

dress kilt hose (knee-length wool socks):

· diced pattern (broad criss-crossing diagonal stripes of two different colors) or tartan patterns (to match kilt) are most formal; note that red diced patterns are for members of the military

· solid-color hose are less formal; note that white and off-white hose are often seen but are deplored by some

ACCESSORIES
•silk flashes (a pair of decorative pointed vertical strips of fabric attached to elastic sock garters) or silk garter ties (traditional sock garters made from fabric that ties around the calf)

dress sporran (decorative pouch worn at the front of the kilt) with silver chain

black, silver-mounted sgian dubh (a small ornamental knife tucked into the kilt hose)

optional dirk (an ornamental cut-down sword)"


While I'd argue that not every point may be perfectly articulated, the general message is far better than the average new kiltie will find from a rental house.
I didn't bother to transcribe the White Tie listings, and there are a few more 'issues' there, but it's still a solid starting point to work from.

ith:

[Taskr]

White Tie is not a tuxedo - it is incredibly more formal and has a set of rules of etiquette that the majority of us will never in our lifetimes have to consider (and if you do or ever do, my most humble appreciation for you having reached that station in life). There is no need to consider whether such conventions are correct of incorrect, they simply are. From my knowledge of protocol and orders of dress, and my completely limited knowledge of White Tie for having never had to deal with it, I would submit that if you have never seen photos of a member of the Royal Family kilted to a White Tie event there is no known kilted equivalent. Full military highland regalia, being the very highest order of ceremonial dress, might be suitable if appropriate to the occasion (and the wearer is indeed serving in a kilted regiment) according to a note in a manual.
The options for black tie and kilt are well discussed in threads in this forum, which contributors range from black argyll to montrose doublet. All of which have been very helpful in sorting out my own decisions on the subject.

[JSFMACLJR]

I would submit that if you have never seen photos of a member of the Royal Family kilted to a White Tie event there is no known kilted equivalent. Full military highland regalia, being the very highest order of ceremonial dress, might be suitable if appropriate to the occasion (and the wearer is indeed serving in a kilted regiment) according to a note in a manual.
.

From a State Banquet held at the Palace of Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh for King Carl Gustaf of Sweden in 1975:
princeCharles1975.jpg

Obviously a "white tie event"; obviously two Members of the Royal Family wearing the kilt. QED there exists a white tie version of Highland Dress.

[The Wizard of BC]

As I said before in post 3 to this thread;

"The only time I can think that a kilt would be acceptable to one of these events is if the invitation specifies "Or National Dress". And then only if you are officially representing Scotland on state business."

That is exactly what you are seeing here. A State Dinner held for Heads of State.

But hey, no one says that you have to believe us. You can believe whatever you want.

[davidlpope]

I think I have to disagree with Steve, in part.

The Royal Caledonian Ball is a perfect example to prove my point. Here is the prescribed dress from their website, http://www.royalcaledonianball.com/dress/:

Gentlemen
Essential:

Highland evening dress comprising kilt and sporran, evening jacket of black broadcloth or coloured velvet, white evening shirt and black bow tie or lace jabot, or

Evening dress, comprising black evening tail coat, white shirt with wing collar, white bow tie and white waistcoat, or
Mess dress, worn according to regulations, with, preferably, where permitted, any more formal variation such as stiff shirt, wing collar and black bow tie

No dinner jackets

See the website, here, for photos of last year's event:
http://royalcaledonianball2014.smugm.../2014/n-SDV7Z/

So, from this real life example, it appears that there is clearly a Highland equivalent to white tie and tails. I'll note, though, that this is a Scottish event, so I'm not advocating that one wear formal Highland Dress to every white tie event.

I do agree with Steve that a USA Kilts casual kilt is not appropriate for a true white tie event.

[Taskr]

Interesting photo, JSF. While apparently white tie, the Duke and Prince yet wear black tie with highland formal and baldrick. Something to add to my notes.
I'd not take the Royal Caledonian Ball as White Tie, David. It's a nuance, but the specificity of dress over "Gentlemen, White Tie" provides the organizers are expecting formal and nothing less. Indeed their website states that the dressing up is part of the entire ambiance.
Still, we all have free will and can choose as we wish should we ever have that opportunity to engage in a White Tie event. I would echo that it's likely not a good time for a casual kilt regardless of accessories. As for black tie/formal: quality of the garment is likely the best guide. If it doesn't feel quite right to you, then you might be on to something.

[JSFMACLJR]

Taskr, I've been to the Royal Caledonian Ball. It is White Tie. You are splitting hairs and you aren't doing a very good job of it. Without a doubt there is a Highland equivalent of "White Tie and Tails". If I need to explain it to you, I doubt you'll believe me.

Furthermore, all the "great" Highland balls in Scotland are white tie only. You'll not get past the door at the Oban or Northern Meeting balls if you don't dress properly.

[JSFMACLJR]

Interesting photo, JSF. While apparently white tie, the Duke and Prince yet wear black tie with highland formal and baldrick. Something to add to my notes.
.

That IS acceptable Highland dress: white bow tie, black bow tie, jabot, or stock--it doesn't matter.