Got my first pair of ghillie brogues

[OC Richard]

Yes Jock that also happens with Pipe Bands, with a band owning a set of kilts for decades, for a quarter-century or more, and the kilts being resized repeatedly to fit various people over the years.

Also many of the Pipe Band people might be new to kilt-wearing and not even realise that a kilt is made to a certain centre-line.

It's why it's best for Pipe Band kilts to be pleated to the line, and to lack belt loops, because the back of the kilt is thrown off-centre when the buckles are moved to fit a larger or smaller person.

But at least in Pipe Bands the aprons are usually left alone, so that the kilt will look centred unless the person has it on crooked.

I think civilian kilts have long been made centred, and that any kiltmaker worth the name would make his kilts that way, and if doing work on an existing kilt try to make it that way.

Certainly in vintage Highland Dress catalogues going back into the 1930s and 1920s it is clear that kilts are intended to be worn centred

[OC Richard]

It's interesting that different regiments would center the apron differently, even with the same tartan. I would have thought it would have been more standardized.

In the photo above there's only one MacKenzie kilt, the one I referenced, in the front line.

Going across that front rank L-R you have BW, BW, MacKenzie, Erracht Cameron, Erracht Cameron, BW.

The two Erracht Cameron kilts are worn exactly the same way. The three BW kilts are too dark to really tell.

One does run into differences, such as the kilts of Officers, and Enlisted Men, of The Gordon Highlanders being centred differently.



As I recall the MacKenzie kilts of The Seaforth Highlanders and of The Highland Light Infantry were centred differently.

[Jock Scot]

OCR.

Remember I was brought up with kilts that were more often than not, made in Victorian times! Whilst your picture of the kilt with a centre line of the 1930/20's is there for all to see, I am not at all sure that all kilt makers at that time and before followed that train of thought. Memory can play tricks on one and mine certainly does, but I don't believe a centre line was a consideration for many civilians or kilt makers in those days.

[OC Richard]

Yes we cannot reconstruct, oftentimes, the thought processes or thinking in the past, unless there's a specific written reference.

I will say that the old Highland Dress catalogues are the only sources, really, which have images of kilts being worn which were created by the firms which made the kilts, perhaps the closest we can get to understanding the intention of the makers.

And in the army we have people who pay close attention to the way various things are worn.

Obviously a civilian can wear a kilt crooked if he pleases, so vintage photos of civilians wearing kilts can't be relied on for information as to how the kilts were actually made and intended to be worn.

Certainly in my own Pipe Band all of our kilts were made with the aprons centred, yet the thoughtless band members throw on their kilts any which way, and only a few "old hands" like myself always wear our kilts centred. It's all of a thing: ghillies laced haphazardly, flashes crooked, hose too high and/or uneven, kilts crooked and too low, neckties sloppy, Glengarries worn too far back on the head.

Many decry "military" or "regimented" kiltwearing but I think everything looks better when care is taken putting it on.

[Jock Scot]

I am afraid that we shall we shall have to agree to differ on the accuracy of the written word and especially pictures OCR, pictures are helpful most certainly, but are not to be altogether relied upon, particularly from catalogues and romantic pictures painted by commercially minded artists who's very specific purpose is to excite the imagination of potential customers. As another example, the photographer had to have two goes(several hours apart) at the picture of the raising of the Stars and Stripes at Iwo Jima. Now, no doubt there were very good reasons(publicity) for doing so, the size of the flag in this case I understand, but misleading nonetheless. Yes memories in the form of the "spoken" word are not always as sharp as they might be, nor is the written word for that matter, nevertheless, they should not be necessarily dismissed in favour of the picture.

[RockyR]

My only added thought about this would be from a kiltmaker standpoint...

Centering a pivot point in the tartan (typically a dominant line or a blank field - like the wide red field in the case of Royal Stewart) on the front apron doesn't really take any additional effort. It just involves marking the apron carefully and perhaps "wasting" 2 to 5" of cloth (which can ultimately be used for buckles, belt loops, etc). Since it doesn't take any real effort AND it makes the finished kilt look nicer and more symmetrical, I would ask, why NOT do it?

Centering a tartan pivot in the rear of the pleats DOES take a bit more care while marking out the pleats, but again, a little care adds to a better finished product, so why not spend the extra 2 minutes to make it look nicer and symmetrical?

It may or may not have been the way it was done in the 1800's / 1900's, but I would think that their sense of beauty is tied (as is ours) to things looking symmetrical, so I would think it would have been done that way. When different people from different areas of the globe / different cultures describe "beauty" of a person based on appearance, it has always been tied to symmetry of features. If you put a mirror down the bridge of the person's nose, people perceived as beautiful have symmetrical faces. That is the ONE thing that ties together every culture's sense of beauty. I am of course paraphrasing from a National Geographic show I watched on the subject and do not claim to be an expert in the field of beauty (aside from that of my wife), but the point was valid.

Whatever the case, centering a line on the apron (and most times in the center of the pleated section) IS how it is done today by kiltmakers and it is what should be expected from discerning customers.

[freddie]

Congratulations on a nice outfit, and you'd never know that kilt was just a thrifty one. You do need to 'Jock' your bonnet though!😃

[freddie]

Yes Jock that also happens with Pipe Bands, with a band owning a set of kilts for decades, for a quarter-century or more, and the kilts being resized repeatedly to fit various people over the years.

Also many of the Pipe Band people might be new to kilt-wearing and not even realise that a kilt is made to a certain centre-line.

It's why it's best for Pipe Band kilts to be pleated to the line, and to lack belt loops, because the back of the kilt is thrown off-centre when the buckles are moved to fit a larger or smaller person.

But at least in Pipe Bands the aprons are usually left alone, so that the kilt will look centred unless the person has it on crooked.

I think civilian kilts have long been made centred, and that any kiltmaker worth the name would make his kilts that way, and if doing work on an existing kilt try to make it that way.

Certainly in vintage Highland Dress catalogues going back into the 1930s and 1920s it is clear that kilts are intended to be worn centred

Note that the figure seems to be wearing his bonnet pulled forward in the Gordon Highlanders style rather than pulled to the side. Also his ribbons are hanging loose and not tied in a bow.

[Paul Munro]

I think you look great. Just the headgear - would you really wear a Balmoral with black tie? I'll refer to the more experienced in the forum, however I never saw it in Edinburgh.

[freddie]

You would and should wear a Balmoral (or Glengarry) with your overcoat or Inverness cape en route to the venue, but don't wear it when you get inside!