X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Celtic Croft website Celtic Corner website Houston Kiltmakers

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15
  1. #1
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Lethendy, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,678
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Traditional Natural Dyes

    Going through my filling cabinet I came across these samples from a dye workshop I took part in in 1985. These colours and shades were all produced using naturals dyes used in the Highlands in the 18th century. They nicely show how terminology such as 'Old/Ancient', 'Modern' and 'Muted' colours is at odds with the real thing.


  2. The Following 12 Users say 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Join Date
    6th July 07
    Location
    The Highlands,Scotland.
    Posts
    15,581
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Some of those colours and shades are wonderful Peter. A few of questions if I may?

    Am I right in thinking that "shades" of colour----red, green, blue, etc.------ in tartan of that time were not really a consideration in those days, particularly when designing a tartan? In other words, red was red and green was green and so on? At what period did this rather more precise colour(shade) choice become more of a consideration in tartan design particularly when the precise shade of colour is used to symbolise the colour of a particular tree in the autumn/sky/terrain/colour of grandmother's eyes/etc.?

    What proportion of the dyes were home grown(UK perhaps) and what proportion were imported at that time?
    Last edited by Jock Scot; 6th June 15 at 10:36 AM.
    " Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    1st February 15
    Location
    Wetlands of Norfolk UK
    Posts
    906
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Would I be correct in thinking that these nice bright colours would fade rapidly with rain /sunlight/ washing as colour fixing wasn't perfect until modern chemical colours?

  5. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to The Q For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Join Date
    13th May 05
    Location
    Native Texan, now located in W. KY/TN
    Posts
    1,000
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Having more than a passing degree of knowledge in this area, natural dye colors like many reds, greens, blacks and yellows are especially fugitive (i.e. they are prone to fading).
    My Clans: Guthrie, Sinclair, Sutherland, MacRae, McCain-Maclachlan, MacGregor-Petrie, Johnstone, Hamilton, Boyd, MacDonald-Alexander, Patterson, Thompson. Welsh:Edwards, Williams, Jones. Paternal line: Brandenburg/Prussia.
    Proud member: SCV/Mech Cav, MOSB. Camp Commander Ft. Heiman #1834 SCV Camp.

  7. #5
    Join Date
    5th July 11
    Location
    Inverlorne
    Posts
    2,571
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have had curtains sun bleach pretty dramatically before. I wonder if they had used natural dyes at the factory. The exposed parts of the curtains went from a rich, deep, burgundy to an orangey pink.
    Natan Easbaig Mac Dhòmhnaill, FSA Scot
    Past High Commissioner, Clan Donald Canada
    “Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland, And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.” - The Canadian Boat Song.

  8. #6
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Lethendy, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,678
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Q View Post
    Would I be correct in thinking that these nice bright colours would fade rapidly with rain /sunlight/ washing as colour fixing wasn't perfect until modern chemical colours?
    No, you would not. Some natural dyes are very light and wash fast, others less so. Dyes preferred to use the former whenever possible. Similarly, modern chemical dyes can fade, especially in bright sunlight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock Scot View Post
    Some of those colours and shades are wonderful Peter. A few of questions if I may?

    Am I right in thinking that "shades" of colour----red, green, blue, etc.------ in tartan of that time were not really a consideration in those days, particularly when designing a tartan? In other words, red was red and green was green and so on? At what period did this rather more precise colour(shade) choice become more of a consideration in tartan design?

    What proportion of the dyes were home grown(UK perhaps) and what proportion were imported at that time?
    Jock, perhaps I should start by defining a couple of terms. Whilst not an exact dictionary definition, and open to interpretation, I tend to use colour as a term to refer to the base group: red, blue, green etc., and shade to the depth or hue of these colours; hence: light, dark, ruby azure, crimson etc. The trouble with the latter is that one man's crimson might be another man's garnet and so on.

    You are right to assume that the shade was not too important in the past i.e. pre-Culloden. Good shades would have of course been preferable but the cost and quality of dyestuff, plus the dyer's skill would affect the end result. Red was the most variable colour one sees in old specimens, ranging from a dull pink through dull cherry to scarlet. The latter was the high art of the natural dyer's skill but was a difficult and cost shade. Wearing a tartan with lots of red was to make social statement about one's wealth which is why most portraits of chiefs show them wearing a predominately red pattern. Blue as a main colour was invariably dark but as a highlight, light blue was popular. Green was mostly often a dull mossy/sage shade and only occasionally dark. One has to remember of course that the majority of the surviving specimens were most likely associated with the gentry and that they represent the top end. The poorer people would have had far less choice in what they could use and would have worn less showy plaids.

    The range of things that could affect the outcome of a dyelot was considerable and a rural natural dyer would have had to assume that each dyelot would be slightly different, we still get that today even with chemical dyes and computer technology. Therefore, the dyer/weaver would need to calculate how much yarn was needed before weaving if they were to ensure uniformity throughout a piece of cloth. Standardised colours and shades did not exist until the latter part of the 18th century when Wilsons started working with standardied recipes in large volumes with known dyestuff quality. They achieved a tolerable uniformity given the variables that they still had to contend with. so, until about 1780 there was no such thing as a standard tartan so far as the shades were concerned.

    From examination of the surviving 18th century specimens and trade records we know that red and blue were almost always produced with imported cochineal (occasionally lac) and indigo respectively. Both dyestuffs had been imported through Scotland since the early 1700s. It's possible that some blue was dyed with Woad, a home-grown indigo source, but it is chemically difficult to determine the difference so we cannot be sure. That said, imported, true, indigo was much stronger and so preferred. By that date yellow-wood and other exotic bark dyes were also available but local, traditional, sources such as, Weld, Heather, and several other sources were still commonly used. Green was obtained by top-dyeing yellow. Poorer people may well have used many more indigenous dyestuffs but the pieces don't survive to allow us to test the hypothesis. On the west coast I would have thought lichen dyes would have been commonly used as some, such as dark crotal have good light fast properties and I very much doubt that it was suddenly discovered when they started making Harris Tweed in the mid-1800s.

  9. The Following 5 Users say 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  10. #7
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Lethendy, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,678
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
    I have had curtains sun bleach pretty dramatically before. I wonder if they had used natural dyes at the factory. The exposed parts of the curtains went from a rich, deep, burgundy to an orangey pink.
    I guess that it would depend on their age. I can see anything post 1850 still being naturally dyed, not in Europe anyhow. Having done some fading tests with modern tartan it seems to faded out evenly eventually going almost white given time. I've examined a pair of curtains made from a plaid woven in the early 18th century and latterly hung in direct light for over 100 years. The colours had dulled and the green altered to a sort of khaki whereas the red and blue were still quite strong.

  11. The Following User Says 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  12. #8
    Join Date
    25th September 04
    Location
    Victoria, BC, Canada 1123.6536.5321
    Posts
    4,794
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Peter,

    Thank you very much for posting this.

    I often have customers in the kilt shop with the common misconception that all this with kilts, and colors, and style happened some time in the ancient past. I have always tried to put our kilts in an historical perspective. The 1700's was not all that long ago. And yet people seem to want to place kilts in the early middle ages.

    Customers often ask what was worn by other guys in the time kilts were developed. I usually tell them to look at drawings that date from the time of the American Revolutionary War. (or the 1770's) To those who say things like "But we could not dye bright red back in those days" I respond with "Were the British Soldiers not known as Redcoats in the same period?"

    Purple and deep Blue have been known since the period of the Ancient Greeks. Scarlet Red was a common color among the ancient Romans. Saffron to produce a deep golden Yellow was carried by Marco Polo as trade goods and currency so was well known by that time.

    At this same time of the mid 1700's British ships were sailing and trading over the entire globe. They brought trade goods back and made them, if not commonplace, at least readily available.

    I think we really need to get out of the mindset that kilts and Tartan are something out of the time of Braveheart. (And we all know about that movie)
    Steve Ashton
    www.freedomkilts.com
    Skype (webcam enabled) thewizardofbc
    I wear the kilt because:
    Swish + Swagger = Swoon.

  13. #9
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Lethendy, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,678
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Anyone really interested in the use of natural dyes in Scpotland should read Su Grierson's The Colour Cauldron which is the dyer's bible. Long out of print but still available and can probably be found through a good library. Su was my teacher and the shades in the OP were the result of a week's test dyeing we did in preparation for her book. I'm fortunate to have a signed copy.
    Last edited by figheadair; 6th June 15 at 10:23 PM.

  14. The Following User Says 'Aye' to figheadair For This Useful Post:


  15. #10
    Mike_Oettle's Avatar
    Mike_Oettle is offline Oops, it seems this member needs to update their email address
    Join Date
    9th June 10
    Location
    Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape, South Africa
    Posts
    3,121
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Steve, thank you for pointing out the predominance of red in the coats of British soldiers. But it should perhaps also be mentioned that the bright scarlet we know so well was the shade found in officers’ coats. Those worn by the rank and file were more of a brick red, which points to the expense involved in creating the bright scarlet.
    I suspect that movie costumiers (and perhaps re-enactors) forget this distinction and dress everyone in officers’ cloth.

    And Peter, I really do appreciate this discussion, because it throws light on a matter often quite grievously misunderstood.
    Regards,
    Mike
    The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life.
    [Proverbs 14:27]

  16. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to Mike_Oettle For This Useful Post:


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0