The Kilt in all its glory ! - MacGregor tartan (1920-1940s)

[LaidlawBell]

Evening all!

So here we have the all important kilt. Measurements as follows:

Waist - 33" - 30"
SEAT 34-37"
LENGTH ^ 26"
FULL LENGTH <--> 44" - Taken from the top seam - Note, there is a slight curve in the fabric so it be be a little longer if straightened.

Weight - Approx 930g

Yard - Unknown.

Pleats approx - 38

Leather straps with thick metal claw buckles.

Lining - nylon/viscose blend? (The fine blue & black pinstripe reminds me of a waistcoat lining c. 1920-1940s )

Trim at waist - Silk ?

feat. Single waist loop to front (centre) - There are a number of repairs to the outer cloth- 'Make Do and Mend' in full force yet again!

No makers names to be seen (Balmoral Hat was by W. Anderson & Sons Ltd) -

Should anyone care to add any comments - Fire away ! They all help in cataloguing the item. Apologies if any of the terminology above is incorrect. (Further images to follow)

Warm Regards. Gil


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[LaidlawBell]

Perhaps these could help date the item?

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[LaidlawBell]

The remaining items in the lot. (See previous posts for further pieces inc. Argyll jacket, Balmoral hat, goat hair sporran with Scottish silver chain 'Edinburgh 1912', tartan drawers, belted fly plaid & sgian-dubh with silver marks Edinburgh 1908.

All comments welcome.

Note - The scarf featured below has a name attached F.R Templer & '670 S' - Any idea what this coding could represent ?

The previous owner is believed to be Francis Templer of Northumberland. Member of The Haydon Hunt. Est. 1809. "Francis Templer, joint master with over 50 years in hunting" (Fox Hunting) - Age unknown. - To be verified.


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[RectaPete]

I can't really say anything about the date but through my admittedly McGregor tinted glasses I can say it is a lovely kilt and if it's over 60 years old it's really held up well!

[The Wizard of BC]

Just some notes ---

When we measure a kilt ---

From the hem up to the center of the top straps and buckles is called the Drop.
From the center of the top straps and buckles up to the top of the waistbanding is called the Rise.

The total length of a kit is a product of the Drop + the Rise.

You can measure Drop and Rise or total length but specify which system you are using.

To measure the total length of fabric used in a kilt is a simple process of measuring the length along the hem from one end of an apron to the other. Remember to measure the apron facings.

To arrive at a rough estimate of the weight of the fabric used in a kilt take the total length of the fabric measured along the hem and mulitpy that by the total length of the kilt from hem up to the waistbanding. This will give you the total area square inches/cm.

1 fabric yard of fabric is equal to 2160 square inches/13935.46 square cm.

13oz kilt wool weighs 13oz per fabric yard and 16oz kilt wool weighs 16oz or 1 pound per fabric yard.
If the total weight of this kilt is as you say 930 grams, then this is a very light weight fabric. 930 grams = 2.09 lb.

To find or list the waist size of a kilt you measure at the level of the top straps and buckles from the edge of one apron across the apron, across the pleats and stop at the edge of the opposite apron. You do not include the width of the second apron. This is the waist size of the kilt.
Unless of course the kilt has been altered. You then measure to where the aprons over lap at the altered location.

The basic things you will need for you ebay listing are - -

The Waist circumference at the top buckles
The Hip circumference at the bottom of the Fell
The length of the kilt using either Drop + Rise or total length
The total yardage of fabric in the kilt
The weight of the fabric used.
The Tartan and its version.

OK, I guess I'll be the one to point out what others seem to be too polite to bring up.

Other than the hallmarks on the three Silver pieces there are no dates on the kilt or any other pieces of the outfit. It is impossible to positively put a date on them. Listing them with the dates you are using is very presumptuous and could be misleading.
To my eye there is nothing about this kilt that would lead me to a definite date of make. I have seen that same lining and similar buckles on kilts as early as the late 1940's and as late as the late 1970's.
You already assumed that due to a buckle design you saw somewhere on the internet that this and the fly were military. You now know this to be incorrect.
Please don't make a similar assumption about this kilt based on the appearance of a lining to something similar in a coat you saw.
You would actually expect a kilt that was 95 years old, if you use your 1920's date, to have a little more evidence of wear than this.

Could this be an old kilt? Sure it could. It is also just as possible, and far more likely, that this kilt is from some much later date.

When listing items please stick to the facts that you can prove. You do no one, especially your reputation, any good by listing dates that you do not have facts to support.
It is far better to say you don't know than to mislead someone by guessing or wishful thinking.

Oh, and your statement in your first post "Single waist loop to front (centre)"
I'm sorry but the pleaty part is the back of the kilt. That is a sporran loop at the center back.

[LaidlawBell]

Just some notes ---

When we measure a kilt ---

From the hem up to the center of the top straps and buckles is called the Drop.
From the center of the top straps and buckles up to the top of the waistbanding is called the Rise.

The total length of a kit is a product of the Drop + the Rise.

You can measure Drop and Rise or total length but specify which system you are using.

To measure the total length of fabric used in a kilt is a simple process of measuring the length along the hem from one end of an apron to the other. Remember to measure the apron facings.

To arrive at a rough estimate of the weight of the fabric used in a kilt take the total length of the fabric measured along the hem and mulitpy that by the total length of the kilt from hem up to the waistbanding. This will give you the total area square inches/cm.

1 fabric yard of fabric is equal to 2160 square inches/13935.46 square cm.

13oz kilt wool weighs 13oz per fabric yard and 16oz kilt wool weighs 16oz or 1 pound per fabric yard.
If the total weight of this kilt is as you say 930 grams, then this is a very light weight fabric. 930 grams = 2.09 lb.

To find or list the waist size of a kilt you measure at the level of the top straps and buckles from the edge of one apron across the apron, across the pleats and stop at the edge of the opposite apron. You do not include the width of the second apron. This is the waist size of the kilt.
Unless of course the kilt has been altered. You then measure to where the aprons over lap at the altered location.

The basic things you will need for you ebay listing are - -

The Waist circumference at the top buckles
The Hip circumference at the bottom of the Fell
The length of the kilt using either Drop + Rise or total length
The total yardage of fabric in the kilt
The weight of the fabric used.
The Tartan and its version.

OK, I guess I'll be the one to point out what others seem to be too polite to bring up.

Other than the hallmarks on the three Silver pieces there are no dates on the kilt or any other pieces of the outfit. It is impossible to positively put a date on them. Listing them with the dates you are using is very presumptuous and could be misleading.
To my eye there is nothing about this kilt that would lead me to a definite date of make. I have seen that same lining and similar buckles on kilts as early as the late 1940's and as late as the late 1970's.
You already assumed that due to a buckle design you saw somewhere on the internet that this and the fly were military. You now know this to be incorrect.
Please don't make a similar assumption about this kilt based on the appearance of a lining to something similar in a coat you saw.
You would actually expect a kilt that was 95 years old, if you use your 1920's date, to have a little more evidence of wear than this.

Could this be an old kilt? Sure it could. It is also just as possible, and far more likely, that this kilt is from some much later date.

When listing items please stick to the facts that you can prove. You do no one, especially your reputation, any good by listing dates that you do not have facts to support.
It is far better to say you don't know than to mislead someone by guessing or wishful thinking.

Oh, and your statement in your first post "Single waist loop to front (centre)"
I'm sorry but the pleaty part is the back of the kilt. That is a sporran loop at the center back.

Sorry about the late reply.

I wanted to say a personal thanks for the in depth reply. I now feel a little more confident in listing the item correctly.
Or to the best of my knowledge. Apologies once again for my incorrect terminology above. I can safely say I've learn more via this forum than I have on any other.

I will be sure to use your method of measuring for future ref. I've sold a number of heavy weighted 'military' kilt in the past and have always wondered how it was possible to determine the weight / yardage of material used. So thank you for clearing that up.

After reading through the posts I'm also in the belief that the kilt perhaps wasn't used by the military - At least I'm 80% sure. Like you say, it's far too light. I'm more drawn towards civilian pipe band if I'm honest.


With regards to the age of the item and the amount of 'moth' repairs (15+), the lining and wear to leather straps. I would perhaps be more inclined to say anywhere up to the late 1950s. No later as the previous owner is said to be in his 80s and going on the size I would assume it was used in his younger days. I will perhaps leave this out of the auction and use a guesstimate of aprrox 1940s-1950s and let the buyer decide. As you say it is never good to mislead the buyers.

It sounds like I over estimated the date due to the dates attached to sporran and dagger being so early. (1912-1908). So I will review that one I think. I do have a silvery buyer willing to look at the items for me. Should I like the sound of the offer I may let them go. - I did want to sell as one lot. I guess I can't afford to turn away a deal, should one be made.

The buckle attached to the drawers was a prima buckle - An internet search gave me a result of 1937 (as seen on British army trousers) -(Like I mentioned in the previous posts) - I also have a waistcoat here from WW2 with the same buckle. - Hence my prediction of late 1930s. Further research on the origin of this buckle is still ongoing - I did get a search with Third Relic Germany - This may have been where they were made. I do understand that the Soilide buckles are from Paris , France. So it is plausible that the prima may have been produced overseas . I will try and gather further info on the coming weeks.
I'm pretty sure we can eliminate 1920s on the kilt and belted plaid. Like you say, you would expect to see more 'wear & tear'. With that said I have noticed a large repair to the belt plaid. Again I can't make any rash assumptions.


I will be in touch as soon as I can with an outcome.

Thanks once again to all that have posted in the weeks running up to the sale. I will be crediting all that have helped. Included yourself.

All the very best.

Gillan

www.retrovintagelove.co.uk