Is it possible to wear a kilt and not look like you're from Scotland?

[Lady Grey]

For 10 pages I've giggled, gasped and rolled my eyes.

...........

So have at it - maybe another 10 pages of agreement, disagreement and laughs!

Oh Dearie Me
21 pages
I'm just eye rolling now!

[Alan H]

Lady Grey, while you might find the page count humorous, and worthy of eye-rolling, there's a reason it's gone on so long. Part of that reason is that the topic is close to a very contentious "flash point" topic that gets people quite heated-up, here. In an effort to not "go there" a number of us have been very careful and thorough with the words we choose, and we've repeated ourselves within each post to try to be as clear as possible.

Not everybody has done this, but I have and I notice that some other people have as well. That takes space. You're welcome to roll your eyes if you like, though.

[Alan H]

However, 21 pages IS a lot and the thread has been active for a long time.

So here's a request...Mods, please to lock it down 24 hours after I put this post in. That will have given everybody ample opportunity to comment, and we can move on to other topics.

THNX.

[Father Bill]

Locking down at request of OP.

Father Bill for the Forum Moderators.

[Father Bill]

My error; thread restored at request of OP - He wanted it locked down 24 hours FROM now, not FOR 24 hours.

Father Bill
Moderator

[Nathan]

Thanks for your response, Nathan. While I find it distressful because what I think I understand from your post suggests that you don't believe there are any "reasonable" reasons that someone would wear a tartan kilt aside from reasons 1,2,3 and 4....I DID ask the question and you answered it, quite directly. I can't ask for more than that. Suffice it to say that we disagree...fair enough, eh?

Carry on!

I don't think I said that. There may be reasons they find "reasonable" but only they'll know what they are. As you conceded, most people will think they're showing love to Scotland. The title of the thread is, " Is it possible to wear a kilt and not look like you're from Scotland?" and earlier I said that it is possible, especially if you look uncomfortable in the kilt or are unfamiliar with how it's typically worn or if you go all Braveheart Brigadoon with it.

But just because you don't look like you're from Scotland doesn't mean you don't think you do. You could well believe that people really do or did dress like Mel Gibson's Braveheart or some such fanciful notion.

Then you switched it to people's internal motivations as opposed to how they'll be viewed by others which is what your thread title spoke to. I simply said that people will assume a connection to Scotland in some respect or another.

For you, it's because you do Highland athletics, for my Afro-Scotian friend Jermaine, it's because he is a bagpiper.

There may be a reasonable reason someone wants to dress in a manner that others will perceive as an expression of Scottishness of one form or another but you'll never separate the tartan kilt with its land and people of origin.

[Alan H]

Thanks for clarifying, Nathan. Much appreciated.

When I wear a kilt on the field at the Games, it's because it's required. So that puts me squarely in Category 3.

When I get all kitted out for Burns Night, I absolutely fit in Category 3, again.

When I wear a kilt backpacking, particularly a polyester-viscose tartan kilt, other people on the trail almost invariably stare and say nothing...especially kids. Those that do say something ask about the tartan, with an obvious eye to "Scotland". There's our point of agreement...it's perceived as being related to Scotland. Absolutely.

The reason I wear it, though, is because backpacking in a kilt is great...I appreciate the ventilation on hot Sierra Nevada days. Also, there's something about the swing of a kilt when you're hiking. Why Polyester-Viscose? Because it sheds sweat and grime. Also, I can literally throw a casual, low-yardage PV kilt in a high-altitude Sierra lake, wade in after it and slosh it around a lot and it comes out cleaner than it went in. I put it on a rock in the sun and two hours later it's ready to go again. It's hard to beat that for trail-wear. Not only that but incredibly, after 2-3 washings it will even shed pine tree and douglas fir tree sap. Try that with wool!

Finally, mice chew up cotton/polyester. Bugs eat wool, and I bet mice in the campsite will chew on wool, too. I found this out when Ms Mouse gnawed a significant hole in a digicamo cotton/polyester kilt overnight a few years ago. I've had PV kilts out overnight and nobody has bothered them.


I *could* wear a solid-color PV kilt, when backpacking. I wonder, does Marton Mills market the stuff? The thing is, the broken-up patterns of a tartan kilt don't show the grime of a 6 day Sierra backpacking kilt like a solid color kilt does. If Marton Mills sold camouflage polyester-viscose in the same weight/treatment as their tartan PV offerings, I would be **all over it** --- but they don't, not that I'm aware of. So I wear tartan.

These are all reasons which seem to me to be valid, (much better than being convinced that wearing a kilt will forestall my being hauled out through my TV! ) but have absolutely nothing to do with wanting to imitate a Scot. Now, I might be the odd man out, the 0.1%. So sometimes I fit into categories 1, 2, 3 and 4 and sometimes I don't.

Interestingly, a LOT of XMTS'ers have written in this thread that they're not trying to "imitate a Scot" when they wear their kilts. I'd hazard a guess that sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. Admittedly, our XMTS population is *probably* different from most North American kilt-wearers.

[Kanati]

To quote

"In the eyes of most if you wear a tartan kilt you look as though either:

1) You're native to Scotland
2) You're of Scottish descent
or
3) You participate in a Scottish activity. "

I point out this phrase....."in the eyes of most".

Most folks seem to agree that the regular guy/gal on the street will always associate a tartan kilt with one of those things. Agreed.

My question is, Nathan....is it possible for the WEARER to strap on a tartan kilt for reasons other than what you just listed, plus one other reason: 4.) the wearer wants to imitate being a Scot ?

The perception of others, the general public is overwhelmingly your reasons 1, 2 and 3... Agreed.

However, do you think that the motivations of kilt wearers are always, 1, 2, 3, or 4?

I have learned much from Xmarks and in particular Jock so...
I would like to suggest that #4 be "to bring in (impress) the girls" .

[Alan H]

But just because you don't look like you're from Scotland doesn't mean you don't think you do. You could well believe that people really do or did dress like Mel Gibson's Braveheart or some such fanciful notion.

Folks do... even folks who should know better, as they belong to organizations which purport to represent the time period. Not ALL...but some.

There may be a reasonable reason someone wants to dress in a manner that others will perceive as an expression of Scottishness of one form or another but you'll never separate the tartan kilt with its land and people of origin.

I'm really glad to see what you wrote, that I put underlined, there.

The bolded part....True, and I think we've pretty much all agreed on that.

[OC Richard]

My summation, or parting shot if you will, would be the following points:

- Highland Dress has long been the world's image/stereotype of The Scot.

-The view of tartan and Highland Dress within Scotland has changed over the centuries. In the 17th century it was regarded as the suspicious dress of a foreign race who were seen as little more than robbing pillaging savages. Now Scots themselves, in a number of regards, have embraced tartan and kilts as a national symbol, Lowlanders and Highlanders alike evidently regarding it as a Fancy Dress for international sporting matches, weddings, and other special occasions. In the Scottish military Highland Dress has gone from the odd picturesque costume specific to the Highland soldier to the standard uniform of the nation.

-People outwith Scotland who don Highland Dress will be perceived as "dressing like a Scotsman" though this, in most cases, is not their intent.

-Canada is a special case, due to the early, large, and continued presence of Scots, which to some extent has blended Scottish and Canadian identity to many. One small example is when Disney World opened EPCOT with pavilions representing various nations, a group of kilted bagpipers performed daily- in the Canada pavilion, not the British one. The presence of kilted military units may function as a sort of barometer of Scottishness: from 1808 Scotland has had only five kilted regiments in the regular army, recruited from the Highlands. Canada has had many more, and recruited from all over the nation. The Black Watch of Canada is in the very centre of French Canada, for example. Regarding the USA, using that military barometer of Scottishness doesn't give much: we've only had one regiment which was entirely fitted out in Highland Dress as its standard uniform, a State Militia regiment in the mid-19th century, and it only wore Highland Dress as its Full Dress uniform, not on active service.

-People of Scottish ancestry the world over often view it as natural and right to don Highland Dress. Their intent is not to "look like a Scot" in the sense of a current citizen of modern Scotland, but look like what they are: a person of Scottish descent.

-The above comments pertain to Highland Dress per se, not to recently created Fashion Culture things like Utilikilts, which originated and continue to live outside of Highland Dress. This is intentional on the part of Utilikilts, the creator stating that he will never offer them in tartan.