Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[Nathan]

Steady Nathan you are on the cusp of being insulting. The Scots of my acquaintance think as they do as I honestly report. I think we are best to leave it there, don't you?

Sure I do. Since I don't think you grasp that telling someone of proud Scottish heritage and diaspora culture they're not Scottish in any way is well past the cusp of being insulting.

[Jock Scot]

A differing of strongly held opinions is not in the least bit insulting when discussed with courtesy.

When implications of doubting someones honesty are voiced then that is most certainly insulting. Particularly when an outsider starts telling how another country may or may not think.

Nathan this discussion really ought to stop right now. Therefore, I do not propose to voice one word more on this subject in this thread, than what I have already said.

[Nathan]

A differing of strongly held opinions is not in the least bit insulting when discussed with courtesy.

When implications of doubting someones honesty are voiced then that is most certainly insulting. Particularly when an outsider starts telling how another country may or may not think.

Nathan this discussion really ought to stop right now. Therefore, I do not propose to voice one word more on this subject in this thread, than what I have already said.

I don't doubt your honesty. But by demanding Scottish-Canadians/Americans/Australians not refer to themselves as Scottish in any context, it is you who are telling the residents of another country how to we may or not think of ourselves.

Claiming to be able to dictate someone else's identity is indeed insulting. Asking you to open your mind that others may view the issue differently than you and may have a valid perspective is certainly not as insulting as smugly attempting to exclude people from their own familial and ethnocultural heritage.

[Liam]

Gentlemen.... We have crossed this same bridge many times in the past and I doubt more discussion however respectfully done will change the other party's opinion. Like the Padre, I expect this type of thread discourages new members to join the forum and causes some to leave or be far less active.
Slainte to all!

[Reiver]

Gentlemen.... We have crossed this same bridge many times in the past and I doubt more discussion however respectfully done will change the other party's opinion. Like the Padre, I expect this type of thread discourages new members to join the forum and causes some to leave or be far less active.
Slainte to all!

Not quite a bridge really, more like a wrestling bear pit that always ends in a draw.

I don't think those living in Scotland (generally) intend to be insulting, they have their strong personal opinions.

They appear, to me, to be upset that their/the Highland culture has been sold/exploited to the world and the diaspora in particular. I can see that to a point.
They do not see the diaspora's attention as a positive but more a negative. A bit of thievery. Flying false colors as it were.

I do not think that anyone would intelligently argue that those that 'sold' the Scottishness abroad were other Scots...whether well intentioned or simply for economic reasons or both.
The Govt., economic enterprise and official Clan elements were/are still doing so aggressively today.

The diaspora, those with obvious Scots names and documented heritage, feel a kinship with Scotland thru familial ties, traditions kept alive and thru their own personal history.

What are the official rules for kinship anyway...kin being family of sorts of the long lost kind?
Where are the rules written so we can hire a barrister(s) of due note to argue both sides of the case?

In lieu of finding that lawyer/mouthpiece/barrister I've decided to side with those Scots that find the diaspora appealing (for whatever reason) and my Clan Chieftain (who has talked of this issue) and Lord Lyon (who has also)....in other words, I choose that side and recognize the other does exist and the twain may never meet. It is obvious there is no real consensus one way or the other.

Why should I allow anyone to define my very well researched and articulated ancestry to me?
Why should those in Scotland allow anyone to write their definitions of this/that?

In lieu of finding that rule book it is simply a personal opinion....and we know about personal opinions and body parts do we not.


There is a for and against. I accept that....and, I suspect, there always will be. So be it and God bless all here...even you Jock you curmudgeon ...said with love and respect.


Pat Scott

[RSHAW]

Perhaps there is a sense in that people,cultures,nations,etc. do not wish to be defined by others. No matter how unintentional or unwitting it may be, it can be irritating to be defined by an outsider. No doubt there may be shared interest, certain commonalities, etc. but bottom line in the case of modern day Scots living in Scotland and people with Scottish heritage living in the U.S. It is not the same.

There is something sad and awkward for example when a long retired person comes back to visit the old job. People have moved on, things have changed. Sure the retiree will be treated in a friendly and respectful way, but his time there has come and gone. Even in view of the past, it is no use for the retiree to insist that things should be done as when he was there. It just becomes awkward?

is this something like our friends in Scotland believe?

[Nathan]

Admittedly, my patience with crossing this particular bridge is wearing rather thin.

In Nova Scotia, as in Scotland, there have been systematic attempts to eliminate the Gaelic language and culture. People were beaten for speaking Gaelic at school and mocked for their accented English. All schools were in English (or later French).

After decades of fighting to preserve and maintain our culture and bring it back from the verge of extinction, we have finally made the English speaking population of the province see it as an asset rather than something to be stamped out.

I mention this only to explain the passion and pain that the subject elicits. To fight so hard to preserve and protect our Highland Scottish culture we view as precious only to be nonchalantly brushed aside by some of our native-born Scottish cousins and told we have no claim to our peoplehood is more than a difference of opinion.

As a member of a diaspora Highland Scottish community in Canada, I take great umbridge in being told we are simply Canadian full stop and the Scottish fact of our cultural reality us unworthy of mention, label or recognition.

Of course I'm a proud Canadian but that doesn't tell my whole story. I'm a Canadian of the Scottish variety and we have left an indelible mark on the creation of this nation.

I obviously can't make my Scottish friends on this forum agree with me and stop thinking we are not Scottish by any definition but I will ask them to stop voicing that view on the forum once and for all.

[Taskr]

Not going to argue the point, Nathan, but your description in paragraphs 2 and 3 was not mine growing up in Inverness county over 4 decades ago. The Scot culture was practically everywhere - language, music, dance, pipes, concerts, the occasional kilt just out for the day. Gaelic was taught in my elementary school. Nova Scotia, and especially our little part of Cape Breton didn't seem subjected as you describe elsewhere. Just a different era, I guess.

Will add, though, that the Scot culture in NS would not have been the only one subjugated. Changing times. And changing again. Mostly for the good of diversity.

[Nathan]

Not going to argue the point, Nathan, but your description in paragraphs 2 and 3 was not mine growing up in Inverness county over 4 decades ago. The Scot culture was practically everywhere - language, music, dance, pipes, concerts, the occasional kilt just out for the day. Gaelic was taught in my elementary school. Nova Scotia, and especially our little part of Cape Breton didn't seem subjected as you describe elsewhere. Just a different era, I guess.

Will add, though, that the Scot culture in NS would not have been the only one subjugated. Changing times. And changing again. Mostly for the good of diversity.

I suspect it was before your time Taskr. A different era is exactly right! Lots of older Cape Bretoners (in their 80s and 90s) have spoken about being beaten in school for speaking Gaelic. If you Google "beaten for speaking Gaelic - Nova Scotia", you'll see some stories. Most of this happened in the first half of the 20th Century. I'll agree with you about other cultures (Acadian, Mi'kmaw and Afro-Scotian) being subjugated in the province.

I think people realized the value of the culture to tourism etc... by the 1960s. Plus we had a Gaelic speaking Cape Bretoner as Deputy Prime Minister...

[jfraser]

Admittedly, my patience with crossing this particular bridge is wearing rather thin.

In Nova Scotia, as in Scotland, there have been systematic attempts to eliminate the Gaelic language and culture. People were beaten for speaking Gaelic at school and mocked for their accented English. All schools were in English (or later French).

After decades of fighting to preserve and maintain our culture and bring it back from the verge of extinction, we have finally made the English speaking population of the province see it as an asset rather than something to be stamped out.

I mention this only to explain the passion and pain that the subject elicits. To fight so hard to preserve and protect our Highland Scottish culture we view as precious only to be nonchalantly brushed aside by some of our native-born Scottish cousins and told we have no claim to our peoplehood is more than a difference of opinion.

As a member of a diaspora Highland Scottish community in Canada, I take great umbridge in being told we are simply Canadian full stop and the Scottish fact of our cultural reality us unworthy of mention, label or recognition.

Of course I'm a proud Canadian but that doesn't tell my whole story. I'm a Canadian of the Scottish variety and we have left an indelible mark on the creation of this nation.

I obviously can't make my Scottish friends on this forum agree with me and stop thinking we are not Scottish by any definition but I will ask them to stop voicing that view on the forum once and for all.

An uncle from my mothers side of the family, talks about being hit at school by the teacher every time the children spoke Gaelic in the school vicinity. This was in the Outer Hebrides and I estimate this to be around the late 1920's.

My own experience shows that there is a close connection between the Gaelic speaking peoples of Canada and Scotland and apart from geographical distance, culturally they are not miles apart.