Just what do you want?

[Jock Scot]

Following on from a very interesting thread that is ongoing at the moment a thought occurred to me from a question asked, so rather than hi-jack that thread I thought it best to start another thread.

When someone asks for traditional kilt attire advice is that really what they mean? Yes I know, everyone who might be interested in the subject will have their own particular view on this and I would be really interested in hearing what what you have to say. Why?

I have a distinct feeling that many of those who ask the question don't actually mean what I and many in Scotland know as traditional kilt attire. When the answers come from me and others, those who ask often appear to baulk at the when, where, what and why and actually mean some sort of "halfway house" and almost dismiss ------not very tactfully sometimes----reality and require more of a compromise to fit in with their rather fanciful perceptions, or regard the advice given as too old fashioned, or dare I say it, the advice given does not fit into various aspects of your own society and you are not prepared to wear the kilt traditionally because of that. Am I wrong?

[Father Bill]

Hi Jock

I've noticed the interchange you're describing on several occasions, and no, you're not wrong.

There is, however, one other factor to be considered in the "compromise" camp, and that is that in other lands, there are some rather well-established, albeit improper concepts of what a well-dressed kiltie should look like for certain occasions. One of those is a tendency to over dress, so rather than be scorned by those around me, rather than having a room of my peers look askance, I've been known to dress it up just a wee tad more than I know I really should - perhaps halfway (or less).

Other than that, I try to be a true traditionalist.

Does that help to understand the "wherefore" of the thing?

[Jock Scot]

Actually Bill, you were in fact one of those that I had in mind when typing the question. I hasten to add that you have never been anything but polite when discussing this particular subject. I am ever hopeful that I can persuade you to take that final step and actually ignore what others expect you to wear and wear what you should be wearing! You are nearly there.

[KD Burke]

I've always tried to wear highland attire, on those occasions when it is called for, in a respectful and "traditional" manner. However, I recognize that part of that is "fitting in" with the expectations of those attending the same event.

I recognize, and appreciate that tweed jackets are exactly appropriate for a daytime wedding in the Scottish highlands. If I was attending the wedding, I'd certainly conform to local norms.

I also recognize that a daytime wedding in, say Tuscaloosa, Alabama, would look considerably different. The good people of Tuscaloosa don't have hundreds of years of tradition to rely on, after all. Celebrations tend to be enthusiastic, but perhaps lacking in understanding of things that "just aren't done" in Scotland. After all, day weddings with the groomsmen in tailcoats are not unheard of. If I was attending the wedding in Alabama, I'd adjust my attire (even if it were not "correct") to conform there as well. if that meant wearing a black Argyll with shiny buttons, so be it.

A complicating factor is that, on occasion, I have to perform, either as a piper or as a speaker at an event. In those cases, my attire has to conform to the part I'm expected to play.

[Father Bill]

Oh, my dear friend Jock!

Yes, we've each been heated at times, but not on this one!

So, for a black-tie dinner jacket evening coming up, which is far enough away to require packing, I'm wearing an Argyle jacket because if it's lost by the transportation people, it's the one I'm least upset to lose and it is, after all a compromise itself, my plain McRostie sporran because the silver-cantle is sealskin and would be seized at the border and it dresses it down anyway, and self-coloured hose. I might take muted, dark green/red diced hose for a change on the second evening.

It's all a compromise based on the transportation, the border, what fits into my baggage, etc.

[Father Bill]

A subsequent thought... that will perhaps not please you Jock:

Your title is "Just what do you want?" Well, respectfully, my goal is actually not to please my friend whom I've never met and who will not be at the event anyway. My goal is to spend a pleasant evening and to be thought of well by my friends who are there. If perchance, at the same time I can nudge them by my somewhat dressed-down example, to something more traditional, that's nice, but then this isn't a crowd of traditional Highlanders.

So... that's my goal, and that's what I want.

I'm glad that you think that I'm "almost there" but I may or may not make it in this lifetime. I did however, just now, decide to swap out the diced hose for a second pair of self-coloured.

[Luke MacGillie]

I do appreciate this thread, and thank Jock and the Good Father for their exchanges.

I will throw out a couple of ideas, they might or might not have any bearing on the subject.

First off, while we all agree that much of what is considered proper in modern Scottish dress dates to the early 20th Century, you can not dismiss that even those trends were rooted in dress considerations that came to be during the mini ice age in Northern Europe. Out here in the colonies, that weather phenomenon was not so prolific, thus here in the Americas, Gibralter, and India, there were major changes made to the clothing of all classes of people. What was appropriate in the British Isles just did not work in these other areas of the world. So are the deviations from the norm, a continuation of that "Colonial tradition" of modified dress?

A second idea, pretty much divorced from the first. I recently attended a Burn's Night dinner. Dress code for the event was "Scottish" or Business. But I found myself totally underdressed in my tweed jacket and waistcoat, as it was a sea of PC's, some black, some white ties. Now it stuck me that outside of Scottish dinners, I have zero use for formal wear, it is just not the life I lead. I survived a couple decades with only my military dress uniform, and only bought some suits as I have entered that era of my life that I have to start attending way to many funerals of my generation. If I fall even barely into the norm of typical day to day life of Scottish descendants in North America , then I am sure that many others also only wear formal wear 2 times a year, (Burns Night & St Andrews), but it is actually cheaper to buy formal wear than it is to buy day wear. That truly is what I think leads to the over dressing.

[Taskr]

An interesting perspective, Jock, and from the others as well.
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Compromise. Days are filled with myriad events of compromise. So here I am, preparing to head to an event whilst kilted. I have limited resources, so its unlikely I have the full range of dress to go with my kilt. Yes, its easy to have my jumper and tie with a good shirt. I might have scored a BPC at a good price. But here I am with nothing to fill the gap. What to do. Well, off to Xmarks to poke about and see what others have done and the kinds of comments on choices. Darn. I'm really keen to wear the kilt but it looks like the sweater isn't enough and the BPC is too much. And here's a thread or few on day-wear/evening/semi-formal and formal sporrans. Shoes! Hose! Gawd. I can't afford all of that, I just want to wear my kilt to such-and-such event.

So, there I am. I can compromise by wearing a suit or under/over dress the kilt. I can post and seek some sort of endorsement of my kilt attire choice. Oh, what to do. And what do I want out of event such-and-such, anyway?
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I propose that, regardless of the results or levels of agreement, that people do come and at least ask for some advice is better than having gone ahead alone without having taken the time to do so. Its a collective learning experience from which we will choose our lessons. Personal circumstances and personality almost always win the day, without the demands of properly turned out uniform or strict for-access dress instructions to an event. In the main, I think we can all appreciate Jock's signature block whilst being polite about disagreement.

Yet, I too have an opinion that has been shaped over a couple of years by those accumulated hours (weeks!) meandering about Xmarks. A black Argyll and vest, a steward-cut coatee, a second jacket/vest in charcoal on delivery; two other kilt-friendly vests; a plain, a chrome-cantle, and a DIY mink-faced sporran (and two more under construction), numerous coloured hose and solid flashes - with one set full hose ties. I don't want to have to compromise on kilt/suit if I don't have to. And I appreciate the open and honest candor that helps shape my respectful (IMO) THCD. I feel I am going to be ok for a morning dress event in about a month; which is something I want.

[Terry Searl]

I'm thinking it is the man that makes the clothes, not the clothes that make the man, I'm sure if you take the right attitude and your pleasure shows, everyone will be glad you came. A celebration is just that and I'm sure Robbie Burns would have been glad to see ya', regardless what you are wearing.....just my opinion

[dcommini]

I like a lot of the advice given from the traditionalist POV, I see it as a standard to eventually be able to meet. I own a black Argyll jacket for nicer events, and I hope to own a Prince Charlie in the near future, but truth be told I don't attend very many events where either are required.

For everything else though I don't see the need for a strictly traditionalist manner of dress. Perhaps I want to only wear my cream ribbed sweater, with comfortable boots. Maybe I want to wear my kilt while mowing the lawn so I'll only wear a T-shirt. Perhaps just a polo if I'm going to be out and about.

The thing is, if there are certain things I have to wear with the kilt then it becomes a uniform or a costume. If we can't be innovative with the kilt, in a respectable manner, then it is very likely that people will stop wearing the kilt.

Trousers are also a traditional dress item. Yet, trousers are worn with a plethora of different things from formal to less than casual. Anybody who said we had to wear trousers in a traditional way would be mocked.

That being said! If someone does ask for the opinions of others then that person should thank those that respectively give their opinions.

For me, if I ask an opinion I truly want to know. If the way I'm wearing my kilt looks horrid and I've asked for opinions then please let me know. I like to think I've come a long way from when I first started wearing a kill to now (I'll spare you all the details, but know I've never worn my kilt backwards). I've improved because I went looking for advice. Before, I'd wear a simple black suit coat with my kilt (or even a regular tux jacket), now I'd much rather have an Argyll (hopefully can buy one soon that isn't black) if I'm going to wear a jacket.

Others, I think, think that adding a kilt automatically equals awesome and they want to hear that they look great, they're not really looking for opinions on improvement. But I think if we don't run them off and encourage them to stick around that they might learn and change their ways.

That is simply my humble opinion.