Just what do you want?

[jumary]

This Saturday, I competed at the Sarasota, Fl highland games. I believe every piper wore a vest, as it was quite warm, too warm for a jacket. Most wore white shirts. Most had on white hose, which I think was part of their band unformed and ghillie brogues. I felt almost out of place wearing Lovat blue hose!

I did notice that the only piper without a black vest was someone competing in the professional category. His vest was green and his hose were a light brown. I did not get a chance to talk with him, but his piping was great. I do think he was American. Overall, his clothing just seemed more authentic. Nothing shiny, no chrome, and definitely unique. It did make me think about wearing more traditional dress in the future.

[MacKenzie]

... require more of a compromise to fit in with their rather fanciful perceptions...

Social media in full effect. Exhibit A: The "Jacobite" shirt.

They have their place, mind you. I owned/wore them long before I ever did a Kilt.

... or regard the advice given as too old fashioned, or dare I say it, the advice given does not fit into various aspects of your own society and you are not prepared to wear the kilt traditionally because of that. Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong. But what's "wrong" is much larger than traditional Highland attire. Something KD said speaks volumes.

After all, day weddings with the groomsmen in tailcoats are not unheard of.

It's 2017. By and large, people today don't know how to dress "proper" for the occasion, or time of day, or anything else. For the most part that concept is lost.

Example: A recent wedding I attended stated "black tie" on the invitation. It was an afternoon wedding outside. I wore a dark green/olive suit. Aside from the wedding party proper, I was horribly over dressed. Shorts with a polo shirt and dock shoes was the next most "formal" attire there.

With that in mind, Jock, you answer the question as you always have. If the inquisitor is really asking "How do I look?" or something else, then so be it. It doesn't invalidate or dampen your perspective. I appreciate it anyway... as if that amounts to a hill of beans.

[The Wizard of BC]

It is possible that some of what is going on here is what sociologists call "cultural acuity". This is a familiarity, or at lease enough sensitivity, to recognize the small tips that can tell where a person is from before they speak.

For example - I was once in a coffee shop in Amsterdam. I was sitting with three other people. One was from the South of France, one from Central Germany, one was a native of the Netherlands and myself, an American.

The waitress came up and before any of us spoke she addressed each of us in turn, in our native language. I was dumbfounded to say the least so I asked her how she did it. She began to point out very subtle differences in how each of us were dressed. She pointed out eyeglass frames that were unique to France. She pointed out shoes that are common in Germany. She pointed out a scarf worn in the way they are in Holland and she pointed out my shirt which is uniquely American.

Most people are not able to do this. Most of us are familiar with the mode of dress of where we come from but not of other places around the world. A guy from Texas will wear his jeans and boots in a particular way and if he travels to New York he will be easily recognized as from somewhere else.

Most of the guys who walk into my shop have very little idea of how to wear a kilt. They may have seen a pipeband or looked on the web but few will have much first hand knowledge of kiltwearing. This is why some guys will emulate the uniform look or think that a Prince Charlie with fuzzy sporran and fly plaid are how it's always done.

Then there are those who see the kilt as something rebellious, something so different from jeans that the more outrageous the better.

So it sort of comes natural for these guys to ask about how the kilt is worn. They use the language they hear so often. They ask "What is traditional?" They are not really asking about traditional in the sense Jock uses the word. They are asking "what is normal?".

See, no one wants to stand out or to look foolish. Thinking about putting on a skirt is a pretty big stretch and to be made fun of on top of that would be too much.

So, to me, these guys are not asking about any one particular type of dress. Not in the way we here among the kilted cognizati do. They just don't want to look foolish so they are really asking "What do I do so I don't look like a fool?"

They just happen to use the word "traditional" simply because that is the word that everyone thinks of first when they think of the kilt. They assume that Tartans are traditional. They assume that the way you wear the kilt and what you wear with it is somehow traditional.

I really think that this word is the crux of the whole problem. It is not the meaning of the word as we use it here that we are having the problem with.

[Jock Scot]

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I really think that this word is the crux of the whole problem. It is not the meaning of the word as we use it here that we are having the problem with.

Well yes and no Steve. Traditional may mean something different to many here and by the replies so far it does appear so and also, you too Steve, it always has caused you problems, but you are right, the differing definitions do cause misunderstandings.

However traditional, in the true Scottish attire sense, does mean exactly that in the "Traditional Kilt Attire" section here on this website, as you well know Steve, even though it has been obvious to all involved in setting up that section you have had difficulty accepting it. Fair enough you think as you do, but there is no denying that there is a significant part of the kilted community here on xmarks who do not think as you do.

Interesting replies folks, thank you.

[Taskr]

"Normal" is a synonym for "traditional", but the word normal is not in the definition of traditional. "...long standing and established..", "..produced, done or used in accordance with tradition.." and Tradition, "the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way"

I can see what looks normal in the 10 looks one kilt thread. I can ask if anyone knows of alternative socks that still look good but is more suitable for long hikes whilst kilted. I can ask if I wear my hose and flashes with a sport kilt while vacationing in Florida if they'll notice I'm from away.

If I ask if something is traditional, I should expect those of you who know who you are to come up at a some point and provide traditional input, opinion and maybe even example.

We don't all have the resources for our kilt attire to be everything we might want it to be; just as not everyone has a tux, dark suit, or even boots and hat for a rodeo theme party. I was on the tuxedo portion of a gentleman's dress website yesterday - the 'what's right?' exchange isn't so different from in here. So, I feel for the OP of this and the thread that motivated it. Both threads provide the lesson that we should be particular in what we ask...and what we say. Thanks to them both for the points to ponder.

And Jock, even though I've found some great traditional advice in the threads you'll be seeing my post when I've my morning dress event wear put together for some feedback (Got the shipping notice this morning!!!)

[Jock Scot]

Taskr.

I am sure that you will look just the ticket in your new outfit.

You know, many think traditional kilt attire is all about tweeds, brogues, bonnets and cromachs. Well thats true in part, but that is only part of the whole traditional kilt world. Can I suggest that those that might be interested in real traditional kilt attire take a minute or six to peruse the traditional kilt attire section here, you may be surprised in what you find.

[RGRatSea]

The great thing with this site is the variety of perspective. Since a kilt will replace the trousers, at some point you ask, "now what else should I put on?" Here are a few of my answers as worn over the years:

Tropical kilt (3 yd pv), red flower Hawaiian shirt, Sperry boat shoes, leather fanny pack worn in front. This while living in the tropics.

Kilt (9 yd Strom), sweater (jumper), leather shoes, socks pushed down, sporran.

Kilt, open neck white shirt, Harris tweed kilt jacket, hose, flashes, brown lace shoes, skean dhu.

And many variations filling the cracks. The kilt is worn as attire and accessorized as seems appropriate. Formal, naturally is black tie with Prince Charlie and waistcoat. Less formality, work it out with a thought to looking well. As stated earlier, attitude is an important part of wearing the kilt. I prefer a friendly demeanor with a bit of smile and a sense of humor. Done well, any conversation will end with the other person being glad they chatted with you and a feeling of knowing more about the kilt and its history and your reason for wearing it, comfortably.

Ryc, House of Stewart, Clan Fraser, Clan Gibbs

[Damion]

At what point does traditional become fixed?
The Amish adopted a mode of dress that was fashionable sometime in the 19th century and determined that they didn't need to improve upon it.
Highland dress like "lowland dress" during the 19th century was heavily influenced by military attire and vice versa and eventually evolved into what exists now.
Ease of availability, cost and necessity are all going to play a part.
Very few occasions arise today where people dress up so the owning of a suit, let alone multiple suits for different occasions is going to be a hard ask even for people with the money.

I recall seeing footage from the memorial for Neil Armstrong on some naval ship. The crew were all dressed in their traditional whites, but the Armstrong family were dressed for a barbecue, smart casual at best. Such is how formal attire is viewed by society at large. The family dressed up for the church service.

I think rules for determining dress are great, especially in today's more casual fashion sensibilities. This is about traditional dress afterall and not about wearing the kilt as another item of clothing in which the rules are not so important.

I think that the kilt is a full garment that deserves an equally full garment on the torso to balance it aesthetically. T-shirts worn with the kilt to me are akin to wearing the same with suit trousers, it looks like the person has forgotten to put the rest of their clothes on.

[Mikilt]

Jock,
Thank you for starting this thread. I have always found your guidance and examples wholly sincere, helpful and appropriate.

Part of the reason your opinion carries weight with me is that you are someone who actually lives in the Highlands and has worn the kilt for 70-some years. I think it's quite obvious you know what you are doing when you wear the kilt.

There are many here whom I respect and whose style I endeavor to emulate. Perhaps like Father Bill, I dress it up just a notch. But always within the parameters of appropriate formality as outlined many times here on X-Marks.

There is a humorous-in-its-absurdity saying. "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like." It's a reality that some take this same approach to wearing a kilt.

To answer your question, what I want is straight answers and genuine constructive criticism. I want to wear the kilt as naturally as someone who has worn it their whole life.

If I wanted to learn origami, I'd seek an expert. There's at least a chance that person might be Japanese and has learned the art in Japan. These are serious credentials in my book.

I am not saying yours is the only perspective I value. I just think that the perspective that you do bring is valuable to me.

[Steve Ashton]

"]However traditional, in the true Scottish attire sense, does mean exactly that in the "Traditional Kilt Attire"

Jock, this is really at the heart of what I am trying to say. Just because someone, especially a new person, comes onto X Marks and asks for advice on how to wear his kilt - he may often use the word traditional - but the evidence shows that he is not using the word as you define it.
In fact it is far more likely that he is referring to something totally different. He is probably using the word in the way that most other Scots use it because that is what he has seen.
And I am speaking specifically about Scottish websites because that is where most guys will go first and get their first exposure to kilt wear.

See, my problem is not with anything you say. I just come from a wider world perspective. The perspective of those who know almost nothing about the kilt, and are using the Scottish sites for guidance.
The Scottish sites are who gave the world the white hose you have railed about for so long. The Scottish sites are who gave the world Ruche ties, Prince Charlie Coatees worn to every event, the fuzzy rabbit sporrans dyed bright purple, and Ghillie Brouges.

You imply that is we, who are not born and raised in the Scottish Highlands, that 'don't get it'. Yet I see on a daily basis from those who visit my shop that it is the Scots themselves that have given a mixed message about what "it" is. You may well believe that there is such a thing as "True Scottish Attire" but in fact there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Even the hand full of Highland Scots here on X Marks are but a very small part of the overall Scottish kilt world. By and large it is the Lowland Scots, the hire companies, and those who produce and market kilt wear that have a larger voice.

I have never said, or even implied that "kilt attire is all about tweeds, brogues, bonnets and cromachs". What I have tried to explain that this is just one way to wear a kilt and is not, even by a small percentage, the way kilts are worn, even in Scotland.

This goes back to my original observation of "cultural acuity". This is at the heart of why so many guys come to X Marks with questions. They are being given very mixed messages about what 'traditional' means. They have not yet developed the cultural acuity to know what is, and what is not, the way to wear a kilt. They see pictures of guys dressed in the 'cookie cutter' outfits and see words like "Traditional kilt outfit". This is where they are getting the definition of the word.

Yes, X Marks today has a very traditional slant. It was not always so. Quite a few comment about it. Especially on other sites after they have been here and been made to feel that everything they have seen in Scotland or on Scottish sites is somehow frowned upon here. They see people say things like "It's just not done" when everywhere else they see and hear something different.

And this attitude of "It's just not done" comes across to many as snobbish. To put forth such an attitude goes against everything else they have seen or heard. So they leave. Many with their finger in the air saying we are very full of ourselves with all our tweeds, brogues, bonnets and cromachs.

I am not saying that you are wrong. I am saying that you may wear your kilt in any way or manner you wish. All I ask is that you extend to others the same courtesy. I am asking that you allow for other views and perspectives. And I am pointing out that you are one, but not the only, voice of kilt wearing coming out of Scotland.

Just as many others would, I did a google search using "Traditional kilt wear" and these are the first images from Scottish Companies that came up.









Is it really any wonder why the word is so confused?