Formal Evening Question

[Walkman]

Where in heavens name did this useless semi formal nonsense come from? Casual, smart, dress(formal) has worked well for us in the UK and I think in the Commonwealth too.Well it did in Australia some fifty years ago!

Casual= Anything from swim wear to sports jacket and corduroy trousers etc..
Smart= Blazers to lounge/business suits.
Formal= Morning dress(day time) to formal evening wear( black/white tie).

With the addition of common sense the system works well and is simple and easy to understand. I recommend it!

It also helps if you understand the basic differences between Highland Scots kilt attire requirements and Saxon attire too.

IMHO: Business/Semi-formal is what you are calling "smart", Jock. I've never heard of it referred to as "smart" in the USA. Here the traditional categories are casual, business, semi-formal, and formal. Within formal we have morning and evening dress. Evening formal can be further split into black tie or white tie. That said, I doubt that the average middle class person is familiar with any of this anymore and others may disagree with the way I've laid it out. We also have "business casual", which is a modern addition and really just the upper end of casual (and evidence of the dumbing down of America in my opinion).

[Standard]

IMHO: Business/Semi-formal is what you are calling "smart", Jock. I've never heard of it referred to as "smart" in the USA. Here the traditional categories are casual, business, semi-formal, and formal. Within formal we have morning and evening dress. Evening formal can be further split into black tie or white tie. That said, I doubt that the average middle class person is familiar with any of this anymore and others may disagree with the way I've laid it out. We also have "business casual", which is a modern addition and really just the upper end of casual (and evidence of the dumbing down of America in my opinion).

As evidenced by the invite I just received which states "Business Formal/Festive". This is for a dinner honoring an outstanding member of our nation-wide organization.

Now, back to the original post, IMHO no jabot with the PC, and definitely a black self-tie bowtie.

[Tobus]

Would something like a Continental Tie be acceptable?
http://www.blacktieguide.com/Supplemental/Glossary1.htm

Acceptable to Husband & acceptable to the dashing gentlemen of Xmarks in regards to formal wear?

I've never seen one of these before. Even the link you posted says it is not considered proper for black tie. I think I would pass on the idea.

[Walkman]

IMHO no jabot with the PC, and definitely a black self-tie bowtie.

That's my recommendation as well.

[plaid preacher]

First off, I agree with most of the folks who have already posted - what people mean these days when they say formal is a dog's breakfast. Father Bill has given great advice, call the Legion and see what the level of dress will be. I'm guessing it will probably be lower than black tie, which opens up many more options for highland dress. Even if it is black tie, I have a strong suspicion that many Legion members will be wearing "blues and grey" because for them it is their uniform. (Blues and greys = blue blazer with Legion crest and grey flannel trousers). What this means is that a Black Argyll with vest or Prince Charlie would be the jackets that would fit in the most. The ones that you mention that you prefer because you can wear a jabot with them are really part of a white tie kit - and I have never been invited to such an event, nor can I see one being held by a Legion.

Finally, if I can be a crabby old curmudgeon for a second, I would say that if the event is truly black tie, i.e. where others will be wearing tuxedos and similar orders of dress, then your husband doesn't have to like the bow tie, he just has to wear it. As we get into the rarified air of formal occasions the dress code exists for a reason. It is about uniformity, which is significant if you are going into a Legion with former serving members of the Armed Forces. If you are attending a commemorative dinner to respect their sacrifice, I think you probably would also want to respect their dress code.

[Jessica]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and opinions.

My, my, dressing for this event is turning out to be an adventure.

We did contact the event chair as suggested (thanks, Father Bill) and asked for clarification on how formal "formal dress" is, ie: Black Tie/White Tie for civilians-- we did find a stipulation of "full mess dress" for military and RCMP members in their published info, but nothing more specific than "formal dress" for civilians. He said it is "indeed formal" then went on to say black tie-- tuxedos and full-length formal dresses, which was in turn a little confusing as most etiquette/dress guides I have read say that black tie does not necessarily mean full length dresses but white tie does.

Anyhow, back to the kilts... As we're renting this time, we were somewhat limited by what the hire shops had to offer anyway. We've talked to/driven out to see a few of them, and where we're sitting now it seems like husband's likely to be dressed in a Flower of Scotland kilt, white point-collar shirt with black studs and some kind of cufflinks (I don't believe he's decided which ones yet), black bow tie, cream hose, black ghillie brogues (though hose and shoes are still a bit uncertain). And a sporran, of course, though I forget what it looks like... it was just part of the rental package, anyway, and I know it's not . We are purchasing hose and shirt, at least, and the were given three options for hose-- cream, black, or charcoal. The man in the shop recommended the cream as he thinks it looks dressier but said that black could also work if we prefer it; we haven't actually gotten the hose yet so I think maybe we'll try and put the different colours next to the tartan when we pick it up and see which Chris likes best.

We've had a chat and I believe our bow tie issue has been resolved... it's not actually that he dislikes them, apparently, he was just being sentimental and after our talk seems to be willing to wear the bow tie, even if he's not overly enthusiastic about it.



Lady Grey-- thank you for the suggestion of the continental tie; while I do like the look of it personally, I don't think it's an option for this since it says it's not considered proper for Black Tie dress.

McMurdo-- thanks for the photo, you four did indeed look great for your dinner. I like the colour of your PC, it's a wonderful accompaniment to that tartan. We did have a look at the 1 Kilt 10 Looks thread. We enjoy hiking, and Chris now seems pretty excited about the possibility of wearing his kilt hiking, if/when we buy him one of his own, lol





Just a coulple more questions for you experienced kilt wearers-- 1, what is the sporran (not the big, long, horsehair ones) usually made of? and 2, his rental comes with a sgian dubh... is there likely to be a problem with him wearing one to something like this? As it's part of the traditional dress, I'm sure he'd like to, but we'd rather leave it home than have it cause trouble!

[Macman]

It is an adventure, isn't it!

My wife and I are going to a wedding in Toronto this summer that stipulates black tie and long dresses, so I hear you on the confusion with dress codes!

If I was buying my own hose, I would go with a colour that complements the kilt, not the ones they have at the rental shop.

A formal sporran is usually made of seal or rabbit fur with a metal cantle.

Your husband will have no trouble wearing a sgian dubh to a Legion in Canada. I have been asked to remove my sgian dubh just once in Canada in 45 years of kilt wearing, at a bit of a rough pub; I was asked to turn it in at the bar and picked it up when I left.

[Father Bill]

Indeed, I've had no trouble with my sghian at the Royal Canadian Legion.

Mind you, I'm the Legion Padre and usually have my collar on.

[plaid preacher]

Great! Glad to hear you got things straightened out on the level of dress ... more or less. The reality is that most people do not understand formal/black-/white-tie and so you almost always have to ask. Although you are technically correct about the dress length, although having said that ladies mess kit includes a floor length skirt - probably more to do with making them look more like the fellas in the mess than anything. But that hint about the Mess Dress, I think, answers the rest of your questions for you. Mess kit, by regulation is black tie - and please do not wear the continental tie discussed earlier if Mess Dress will be present, or your husband will find that he is wear the same tie that the ladies in Mess Kit are. In your area, I suspect there will be some highlanders present, and the sgian dubh is part of their Mess Kit, so that should not be an issue either.

Enjoy your evening.

[Taskr]

From what I've learned thus far here; go for dark or muted hose, not white or cream, and a good pair of black shoes with some shine will do nicely (some will say white/cream and ghillie say "rental" or "pipe band").

If dress is Mess kit or Black Tie, then yes they mean formal. If you've not seen mess kit, it is a splendid military uniform "tuxedo". No continental tie (yes, it is what the ladies in mess kit wear). The ladies in long skirt/gown is the military definition of formal for ladies - reaching back to British traditions roots they say.

point-collar (wing collar?) is a matter of taste, but a pleated or pique front turn down collar might be considered more correct in black tie etiquette. Wing tip collar is more typical of some mess dress uniforms and white tie. Having had to wear wing tip for many years, I can also attest to turn down being more comfortable to degrees.

Your questions:
Sporran in leather/seal/rabbit and chromed cantle is quite elegant. Some rentals will try to provide a hairy/fuzzy beastie of a thing

Sgian. He doesn't have to wear it. Less chance of it getting inadvertently lost if it stayed at home. But, being a Legion event it is highly unlikely to cause any problem at the event.

An adventure for sure, but such fun getting all gussied up for an event. Stay comfortable, and enjoy!