General Question on Proper Fit in the Front with the Apron

[shamrock715]

I'm sorry but using the naval is a very poor way of describing the fit of a kilt. Depending on their weight a guys navel will be in a different place.
It is much more accurate to reference the bones as they don't move.

All kilts made in the Traditional style are designed to have the top strap cinch into the anatomical waist. This is just below the ribcage at the side.

If the wearer wants to wear his kilt lower it must be designed and made to fit that way from the beginning.

This picture describes the fit of a kilt using the bones and where the strap cinches in at the back of the body.



The top strap in this photo is at the "Full Rise" of a traditional kilt.
The middle strap is riding on top of the hip bones and shows "Mid Rise"
The bottom strap is where blue jeans fit and is called "Low Rise".

This word "Rise" is a bit confusing. In days past all trousers were made Full Rise. This referred to the length from the crotch up to the top of the waist band.
But in a kilt refers to the amount of kilt above the top strap.

A kilt can be made with 1 inch, 2 inch and even 3-4 inches in a military kilt. In fact the basic difference between a military kilt and a civilian kilt is the amount of kilt above the top strap.

The three kilts in this photo all fit me. On the left is an actual Royal Regt. of Scotland military kilt with a 3 inch rise.
In the middle is my Tewksbury civilian traditional kilt with a 2 inch rise.
On the right is one of my Contemporary kilts with a 1 inch rise.



Please notice that the length of the pleats from the bottom of the Fell area to the hem is the same. Only the Fell Length and the Rise are different.

If you try to wear a kilt designed for full rise lower on the body two things happen. First you will see a large pucker develop in the front and the kilt may not hang straight down from the belly.
And the second thing is that the bottom of the Fell area in the back will droop below the crest of the buttocks and hips. This is one of the reasons you will see the large shower curtain folds in the back of the pleats on so many kilts at Highland Games.

Steve,

Having the issue I do because of a little belly, what do you suggest? It's strange to me because my belly is small enough that the majority of the time just wearing a tshirt or button down shirt you wouldn't know I have a belly. There are no places that I know of in the Chicago area that sell or measure for kilts. The only one that did, The Scottish Shop closed years ago. When I've measured, I've done it right at the belly button and the tape is level. When I measure the hips, it's where my pants sit on my hips. Is that the correct spot? I'm not sure if that's the correct spot or if I'm supposed to measure around the largest part of my backside.

If I know exactly I can get this right the first time and know how to do it going forward.

Thanks,
Matt

[The Wizard of BC]

There is one golden rule about measuring.

Use the method described by the person who will be making the kilt.

Each kiltmaker has a slightly different way of measuring and are used to that method.

Never send one kiltmaker a set of measurements from another kiltmaker. Never use what you thing is right. If you want your kilt to fit a particular way but the kiltmaker describes how to measure another way, you will probably not get a kilt that will fit, so find another kiltmaker.

The anatomical waist is actually the smallest part of the body. A kilt with a 2 inch rise, worn at the anatomical waist will have the top of the kilt 3 to 4 finger widths below the bottom of the breastbone.

I'll repeat. All Traditional kilts - ALL TRADITIONAL KILTS - will be made to be worn at full rise and the bottom of the Fell area to be at the crest of the hips or buttocks.

If you wish to wear your kilts somewhere other than the anatomical waist you will need to find a kiltmaker who makes mid rise kilts. Very few are prepared to do this.

[macmanjim]

If you try to wear a kilt designed for full rise lower on the body two things happen. First you will see a large pucker develop in the front and the kilt may not hang straight down from the belly.
And the second thing is that the bottom of the Fell area in the back will droop below the crest of the buttocks and hips. This is one of the reasons you will see the large shower curtain folds in the back of the pleats on so many kilts at Highland Games.

I went to my first Highland Games a couple weeks ago. All I have to say is that the kilt police would have had to take Xanax those three days I volunteered.

[The Wizard of BC]

Steve,

Having the issue I do because of a little belly, what do you suggest? It's strange to me because my belly is small enough that the majority of the time just wearing a tshirt or button down shirt you wouldn't know I have a belly. There are no places that I know of in the Chicago area that sell or measure for kilts. The only one that did, The Scottish Shop closed years ago. When I've measured, I've done it right at the belly button and the tape is level. When I measure the hips, it's where my pants sit on my hips. Is that the correct spot? I'm not sure if that's the correct spot or if I'm supposed to measure around the largest part of my backside.

If I know exactly I can get this right the first time and know how to do it going forward.

Thanks,
Matt

If I were you, I would find a kiltmaker who can make a mid-rise kilt. This will have a lower waist than a traditional which means that the Fell area is shorter so the bottom of the Fell is still at the crest of the butt. I would also suggest that you have the kilt made with a 1 inch rise instead of the usual 2 inch rise.

Sort of like this.

This is hand stitched from 16oz wool in the USMC Dress Blue Tartan. My belly button is right in the center of the belt buckle.



You can see that because it was made from the beginning to be worn lower the back still hangs correctly.



But I have to warn you up front that this is not a traditionally made kilt. In addition to being made to be worn lower the waist is sloped to be 3/4 inch lower in front that in the back and it has pockets.



So yes, what you are asking for can be done. There are just not a lot of kiltmakers doing it.

[jhockin]

Steve,

When I've measured, I've done it right at the belly button and the tape is level. When I measure the hips, it's where my pants sit on my hips. Is that the correct spot? I'm not sure if that's the correct spot or if I'm supposed to measure around the largest part of my backside.

If I know exactly I can get this right the first time and know how to do it going forward.

1) "Find your natural waist. An easy way to do this is to stand in front of the mirror and bend at your side. The crease that forms indicates your natural waistline, directly above the belly button and below the ribcage." ( which, for those of us "gentlemen of substance", is the top of our "love handles")

2) measurement around the largest part of your backside, is the "Hips" ( as opposed to your waist measurement, above)

[The Wizard of BC]

Maybe it would help to define some terms.

The waist measurement of all traditional style kilts is taken at the anatomical waist. Regardless if you choose to wear the kilt somewhere else on your body the kiltmaker assumes that you have measured at the same place the kilt is designed to be worn.

The Waist Measurement is the circumference at the anatomical waist taken with a tape measure. I'm sorry but this is not your pants size. Pants today are what are called 'vanity sized'. They are listed 2 to 4 inches smaller than they actually are to make you think you are a smaller size.

The top strap in this photo is at the anatomical waist. This is the smallest part of your body even if you have a belly. It is where your skeleton naturally bends.



A traditionally made kilt is designed to have the top strap cinch into this smallest part. Above the strap the kilt flares outward to fit up, over the bottom of the ribs.

Here is a traditional kilt. You can see the part above the top strap and the flare. This part of the kilt is called "The rise".




Unfortunatly many kilts made today do not have the flared portion above the top strap. On these kilts the smallest part is at the top of the kilt.



The Hip Measurement is the circumference, take with a tape measure, around the widest part of the butt and hips.

Here is where the Hip Measurement is taken.



As the front apron is supposed to fall straight down from the belly, it is quite common for guys to have to pull the tape measure out, away from the front to simulate the apron.

The Fell is the part in the back of the kilt that is sewn down and tapered.
The Fell will never have reverse taper. Where the waist is larger than the hips. In a case where this is measured we make the kilt without any taper. But it is never larger in the waist.
What is usually happening if a customer sends in a set of measurements where the waist is larger than the hips it is usually due to them not pulling the tape measure out, away from the front.
In a kilt made in accordance with "The Art of Kiltmaking" the length of the Fell will be 1/3 of the length of the kilt from the top strap down to the hem.

If a kilt is going to be made to be worn lower the Fell is what changes as the length of a person's leg cannot change.

There is some confusion in the terms Drop and Rise
In traditional kiltmaking the Drop is defined as the length from the bottom edge of the kilt (Hem) up to the center of the top buckle.
The Rise is then the length above the top strap.
The total length of the kilt is them the Drop length + the Rise height.

Not all makers will use a rise measurement. Some call the drop the total length of the kilt from hem to waistband.