The Scots Gaelic Myth

[Allan Thomson]

The Royal House of Stuart became extinct with the death of Cardinal Henry Benedict Stuart, brother of Charles Edward Stuart, in 1807

That's a myth in so many ways...

You fall into the old fashioned mistake of just judging a lines linage by the paternal side - which given that Pictish society was said to be matralinear masks the Stuart linage of our current dynasty. They didn't just invite a random German household to become the rulers of the UK... Indeed Cumberland & Charlie were distant cousins...

On top ofthat back in the other line with the surname Stuart, they Fathered a fair few B*stards...one of them was buried in Dunkeld... Even Cardinal Henry had a few he acknowledged...

I did read a book some years back by someone calling himself Prince Michael of Albany claimingsto be a descendant of the Stuart and rightful claimant to the throne. I was cynical & took his claims to be far fetched. But he did produce a convincing enough argument that there was plenty of illegitimate offspring from that line...it was more that he was arguing about the legitimacy of some of them....my bet is there's probably a lot with Stuart blood about today....

[Allan Thomson]

I'm intrigued by the assumptions that all place names with Dun in are all definitely Gaelic. In some cases is just as probable they were Saxon in origin - the Saxon word for Hill was Dun. For example Edinburgh was part of the Kingdom of Northumbria at one point. Would we claim that Durham and Dunstable are Gaelic? They may be Celtic in origin possibly, but more likely Saxon and if they were Celtic they were P & not Q Celt.


Just a case of the Gaelic extremists (no slight intended to Gaelic Scholars or speakers) seeing a place name & assuming + asserting that it is Gaelic only because it fits with their agenda?

Suprised nobody has brought up Dingwall yet? That drfinitely isn't Gaelic or Saxon & provides evidence of governance by another none indigenous people....

[Allan Thomson]

Actually looking further but the Brythonnic equivalent of Dun (a vitrified Hill Fort) is said to be Din. So Edinburgh could well be P Celtic in origin.

What's to say during the period of Gaelacisation that some older P Celt place names weren't mangled into Gaelic equivalents (or even something totally different?).

I'd suggest the more Southerly appearances of Dun in Scotland & Northern England are of the Saxon origin or Saxon corruptions of earlier P Celt placenames and not evidence of Gaelic being spoken in those areas.

[neloon]

Suprised nobody has brought up Dingwall yet? That drfinitely isn't Gaelic or Saxon & provides evidence of governance by another none indigenous people....

I believe it is accepted as Norse = the meeting place of the thing (assembly).
It's Gaelic name is, of course, Inbhir Pheofharain.

Alan

[Allan Thomson]

Indeed & it's the same as Tynwald & Tinwald. My point was that's Norse & yet not in the areas typically associated with Norse influxes.

[neloon]

Indeed & it's the same as Tynwald & Tinwald. My point was that's Norse & yet not in the areas typically associated with Norse influxes.

I'm not so sure about that. Place name studies suggest that the whole of Ross-shire had a fair Norse presence - even the name itself may derive from Norse hross = horse.
https://ssns.org.uk/resources/Docume...6_pp_23-32.pdf
Certainly the Earls of Ross were of Viking descent.
I believe that the point Patrick was originally making is that, at least for a period of time (albeit short), Gaelic was the most widely spoken language in Scotland long after Pictish and Norse had disappeared. Even James VI (1473-1513) had Gaelic and possibly also his son James V. Accepting this does not in any way diminish the input of Pictish, P-Celtic, Norse, Anglish, Anglo-Norman etc into early Scots, It certainly does not imply that one is a Gaelic "extremist" or "separatist nationalist".

Alan

[PatrickHughes123]

I'm not so sure about that. Place name studies suggest that the whole of Ross-shire had a fair Norse presence - even the name itself may derive from Norse hross = horse.
https://ssns.org.uk/resources/Docume...6_pp_23-32.pdf
Certainly the Earls of Ross were of Viking descent.
I believe that the point Patrick was originally making is that, at least for a period of time (albeit short), Gaelic was the most widely spoken language in Scotland long after Pictish and Norse had disappeared. Even James VI (1473-1513) had Gaelic and possibly also his son James V. Accepting this does not in any way diminish the input of Pictish, P-Celtic, Norse, Anglish, Anglo-Norman etc into early Scots, It certainly does not imply that one is a Gaelic "extremist" or "separatist nationalist".

Alan

Quite right, my point is, there is Gaelic place-name evidence over most of Scotland. The only places where Gaelic was never spoken was the extreme South-East and North-East. Robert the Bruce spoke Gaelic, believe it or not because he was born in Carrick, a place in South-West Scotland that spoke Gaelic.

To deny Gaelic for most of Scotland is to deny Scotland itself. I never denied the Germanic influence on Scotland, nor the Norman influence, nor the Norse influence. Surnames on both side of my family and my knowledge of Scottish history suggest I'm genetically a Norse-Gael, Anglo-Norman, Scoto-Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Irish, Brythonic adult from Glasgow, the place of the green hollow, whatever that means.

Scotland is a nation that has its roots in the Celts and in Gaelic.

Point made.

[Allan Thomson]

Quite right, my point is, there is Gaelic place-name evidence over most of Scotland. The only places where Gaelic was never spoken was the extreme South-East and North-East. Robert the Bruce spoke Gaelic, believe it or not because he was born in Carrick, a place in South-West Scotland that spoke Gaelic.

To deny Gaelic for most of Scotland is to deny Scotland itself. I never denied the Germanic influence on Scotland, nor the Norman influence, nor the Norse influence. Surnames on both side of my family and my knowledge of Scottish history suggest I'm genetically a Norse-Gael, Anglo-Norman, Scoto-Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Irish, Brythonic adult from Glasgow, the place of the green hollow, whatever that means.

Scotland is a nation that has its roots in the Celts and in Gaelic.

Point made.

So you're happy to ignore the far older roots of the Brythonnic speaking people as if their foundations count for nothing? This is what I would brand as Gaelic extremism - reinventing history and ignoring the much older roots of a none gaelic culture in Scotland in favour of stamping a manufactured homologous Gaelic culture in the place of the true culture of that area as a means to provide some feeling that the people on one side of the border are somehow massively different from those to the South when in fact it's more of a gradual evolution.

Perhaps this is the real reason why the Lowlands were more anglicised -gaelic was just a culture foisted upon them by invaders from Ireland so absorbing the later incoming cultures came just as easily?...

Like I said a fair few of those Gaelic placenames you've claimed in the Lowlands could just as easily been P Celt or Saxon. It just depends on the mindset of the person who observes them.

Regarding Carrick but I've already discussed why Norse Gaelic was prsent there. It was part of the Kingdom of Galloway which had connections with the Kingdom of Mann & the Isles... So the Gaelic may well have come from a more Westerly direction forming a little enclave rather than implying there was a spread of Gaelic across all of Southern Scotland.

And Galloway was Pictish first before it was Gaelic.

[figheadair]

Robert the Bruce spoke Gaelic, believe it or not because he was born in Carrick, a place in South-West Scotland that spoke Gaelic.

That's an assumption, I don't think that there is any proof.

[Allan Thomson]

I'm not so sure about that. Place name studies suggest that the whole of Ross-shire had a fair Norse presence - even the name itself may derive from Norse hross = horse.
https://ssns.org.uk/resources/Docume...6_pp_23-32.pdf
Certainly the Earls of Ross were of Viking descent.
I believe that the point Patrick was originally making is that, at least for a period of time (albeit short), Gaelic was the most widely spoken language in Scotland long after Pictish and Norse had disappeared. Even James VI (1473-1513) had Gaelic and possibly also his son James V. Accepting this does not in any way diminish the input of Pictish, P-Celtic, Norse, Anglish, Anglo-Norman etc into early Scots, It certainly does not imply that one is a Gaelic "extremist" or "separatist nationalist".

Alan

I can accept that, but as for Pictish & Norse disappearing, they didn't really, they just assimilated in & changed the language & place names. That's my point about Patricks map being innacurate in showing many parts of Scotland & the Isle of Man as Irish Gaelic rather than Norse Gaelic.

I can accept what you're saying & I support measures to protect Gaelic. My issue is when Gaelic is pushed as THE only true language of Scotland when it wasn't & it's not even the original language of the landmass we call Scotland.