Questions about Outfit Names & Origins

[AbuMaia]

Hi guys,

Can anyone tell me the origins of the "Prince Charlie" style outfit, and the "Jacobite shirt"? Do these garments have any historical/traditional connections to their namesakes?

Being descended from a family that in the 18th century fought on the side of the British government against Prince Charlie and against the Jacobites, I'm wondering if it would be considered inappropriate to wear these garments with my family tartan. Or does nobody really care about that kind of thing anymore?

[Jock Scot]

No, neither garment name have any historical connection, they are just names.

Some in Scotland are interested in Bonny Prince Charlie and the Jacobites from a historical point of view, but on a day to day basis few, or more likely no one, even cares.

[Tobus]

The so-called Jacobite shirt is actually a variation of the shirt style that became popular with the folk revival in the 1960s, or thereabouts. We had a long discussion about it here, with some visual examples from television and popular culture starting around post #95 or so. Somehow it got confused with the shirts that were actually worn in the 18th century, and vendors likely started calling it a Jacobite shirt to appeal to those who wanted that look for a pseudo-Jacobite outfit.

[kingandrew]

Sir Walter Scot's novels during the Romantic Era Tartan Revival (late 1700s-early 1800s) popularized a romanticized view of the Jacobites and Highlanders generally. Marketers keen to give new products a sense of "tradition" or "heritage" are quick to slap names associated with Scottish history onto said products. The Jacobite uprising is one of the more celebrated events in Scottish history, so lots of things get named for Prince Charlie, the battles, and the Jacobites generally.

Of course, Highland dress is replete with things that are now seen as "ancient" traditions that largely date to the 19th century and later. Certainly old enough to be traditions today, but not "ancient" in the same sense that the Roman Empire or Egyptian pyramids are ancient.

No one will remember who your ancestors fought for centuries ago, nor will they hold it against you if you wear an item with a Jacobite name. But the fact you know your ancestry and are aware of your family's connection to events will likely be of interest to any history buffs you meet.

Wear it with pride and style.

Andrew

[OC Richard]

Can anyone tell me the origins of the "Prince Charlie" style outfit, and the "Jacobite shirt"? Do these garments have any historical/traditional connections to their namesakes?

The Prince Charlie is a style of jacket. About the "Prince Charlie style outfit" I guess you mean Evening Dress?

The jacket we call the "Prince Charlie" was originally called "the coatee" or "Prince Charlie coatee" and was invented in the early 20th century.

It was the first of four new Evening Dress jackets to appear between 1910 and 1930.

Just why Highland Dress had got along fine with two Evening jacket styles from around 1840 to 1910, and then suddenly decided it needed more, is a mystery.

In the book The Kilt: A Manual of Scottish National Dress (1914) the author (Loudon MacQueen Douglas) has this to say about the Prince Charlie coatee:

"The Coatee.

In place of the Doublet (the standard Highland evening jacket) some Scottish dresses have a coatee, or short coat, with abbreviated tails, like a morning coat.

It is quite optional whether this is worn, or the Doublet.

Any form of the Coatee, however, is entirely modern..."

There is not the slightest connexion between any Coatee and the Prince Charlie of the '45, due to coatees (as an item of Sasunnach dress) not appearing until the 19th century. Coatees were the standard jacket of the British army from 1800 to 1855, worn by English, Lowland, and Highland troops alike. Just why Highland Dress should adopt coatees over a half-century after they were abandoned by the army is yet another mystery.

About "Jacobite shirt" or "pirate shirt" it's a recent invention, not resembling 18th century clothing very much.

Most likely it was invented by Hollywood costumers in the 1920s when they made a load of pirate movies.

Here the Prince Charlie Coatee (left) and Kenmore Doublet (right) appear in an early catalogue.

We might note:

1) the jackets are shown in green and blue, but not black.

2) the Prince Charlie coatee is shown with lace jabot, tartan vest, and castellated hose making the overall outfit rather more elaborate than we usually see today.



Here is the military coatee worn by English and Scottish soldiers alike from 1800 to 1855. The officer's coatee to centre clearly shows how the cuffs and tails of the Prince Charlie coatee were copied directly from the 19th century military coatee.



About shirts, here is an original 18th century shirt. As you can see it looks nothing like our modern Jacobite/pirate shirts.

[OC Richard]

Every tailor and highlandwear retailer has their own names for these garments... One tailor's Kenmore will be another's Montrose...

There's no excuse for that, because the Kenmore doublet's origin is clearly documented: the catalogues of William Anderson & Sons LTD (Edinburgh and Glasgow) from the 1920s and 1930s state that they invented the Kenmore doublet:

"To get over the objection of the rather heavy skirts (of the traditional doublet) we have designed a modified doublet known as the Kenmore doublet. This makes a neat and shapely coat and has proved immensely popular since its introduction."

I've not been able to find similarly concrete information about the origin of the Prince Charlie coatee or the Montrose doublet, all of which appeared in the early 20th century.

See this thread about the timeline of these various jackets http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...jackets-93544/


I see that the firm Forsyth by the 1950s is offering Anderson's Kenmore under the name Morar.

Where we most often find differences in nomenclature from firm to firm is with the cuff variants of the Argyll jacket.

Going all the way back to the mid-19th century it appeared both with plain cuffs and gauntlet cuffs. In catalogues from the 1920s it was made with gauntlet cuffs and called the Argyll jacket.

Nowadays we see Argyll jackets made with gauntlet cuffs, the three-point slash cuffs of the Prince Charlie, and with plain cuffs. These variants are known by different names by different firms.

[AbuMaia]

Is a Prince Charlie the accepted/expected jacket to wear for formal events? Can one wear a fly plaid with an Argyle or a Sherrifmuir?

[AbuMaia]

Thanks, but I was asking if a PC was expected for formal events, or if an Argyle or Sherrifmuir would be equally suitable.

[Allan Thomson]

The Prince Charlie is a style of jacket. About the "Prince Charlie style outfit" I guess you mean Evening Dress?

The jacket we call the "Prince Charlie" was originally called "the coatee" or "Prince Charlie coatee" and was invented in the early 20th century.

It was the first of four new Evening Dress jackets to appear between 1910 and 1930.

Just why Highland Dress had got along fine with two Evening jacket styles from around 1840 to 1910, and then suddenly decided it needed more, is a mystery.

In the book The Kilt: A Manual of Scottish National Dress (1914) the author (Loudon MacQueen Douglas) has this to say about the Prince Charlie coatee:

"The Coatee.

In place of the Doublet (the standard Highland evening jacket) some Scottish dresses have a coatee, or short coat, with abbreviated tails, like a morning coat.

It is quite optional whether this is worn, or the Doublet.

Any form of the Coatee, however, is entirely modern..."

There is not the slightest connexion between any Coatee and the Prince Charlie of the '45, due to coatees (as an item of Sasunnach dress) not appearing until the 19th century. Coatees were the standard jacket of the British army from 1800 to 1855, worn by English, Lowland, and Highland troops alike. Just why Highland Dress should adopt coatees over a half-century after they were abandoned by the army is yet another mystery.

About "Jacobite shirt" or "pirate shirt" it's a recent invention, not resembling 18th century clothing very much.

Most likely it was invented by Hollywood costumers in the 1920s when they made a load of pirate movies.

Here the Prince Charlie Coatee (left) and Kenmore Doublet (right) appear in an early catalogue.

We might note:

1) the jackets are shown in green and blue, but not black.

2) the Prince Charlie coatee is shown with lace jabot, tartan vest, and castellated hose making the overall outfit rather more elaborate than we usually see today.



Here is the military coatee worn by English and Scottish soldiers alike from 1800 to 1855. The officer's coatee to centre clearly shows how the cuffs and tails of the Prince Charlie coatee were copied directly from the 19th century military coatee.



About shirts, here is an original 18th century shirt. As you can see it looks nothing like our modern Jacobite/pirate shirts.

The Coatee was officially introduced in 1797 in the British Army. I am sure however that I have seen prototype examples illustrated in books on the American Revolution, although of course they wouldn't have been official... ( Definitely a coatee and not just the tail coat with the lapels closed).