A Family Story (Myth?) and Question about Gaelic Languages

[Tobus]

If it's proven that he lived in Wales for a while, preaching in the kirk there, and your aunt was born there, why would you doubt her story that he could speak Welsh? I would actually be surprised if he couldn't.

[ctbuchanan]

Not exactly the same thing but my grandfather was a Church of Scotland missionary who went to Palestine. Within a few years he spoke both Arabic and Hebrew. It was expected.

[Father Bill]

*Snip* As for a Gaelic speaker becoming fluent in Welsh, I have some doubts. Welsh, in common with Latin, pronounces every letter in a word whereas Gaelic is quite different with so many letters silent. There is certainly connections such as “aber” where Abertawe in Wales corresonds to Aberdeen in Scotland. Other coincidences are words such as “gareg” meaning rock in Welsh and “ Carrick” in Scotland but these are probably more related to the Brythonic peoples inhabiting these areas.

Ah yes, those are differences in the two languages, but what you correctly posit omits consideration of the natural inclination and ear some folks have for languages. I've studied five and speak three (obviously, some better than others) but have had similar experiences with people being delighted with my sorry attempts at their language that nonetheless allowed us to communicate well and earned me much probably over-generous respect.

That kind of natural inclination would fit in with the OP's story rather nicely.

[neloon]

Welsh, in common with Latin, pronounces every letter in a word whereas Gaelic is quite different with so many letters silent.

Neither of these statements is strictly speaking true but this is a matter of orthography not the spoken forms of the languages. Gaelic uses "h" to change the pronunciation of a preceding consonant (as does English in very confusing ways - "though - trough - plough - thought" etc.). This makes Gaelic seem full of "h"s where Welsh uses a different letter to signify the altered sound e.g "big Mary" is "Mair fawr" in Welsh but "Màiri mhòir" in Gaelic - in both cases the initial "m" of "mor/mawr" is lenited because she is feminine but Gaelic keeps the "m" whereas Welsh converts to "f" and both are pronounced "v". Hope that's not too technical!

Alan

[The Q]

I've noticed that people brought up speaking more than one language , find it much easier to learn other languages quite quickly.
My brother brought up speaking Gaelic and English took and passed with distinction 6th year studies in Russian having not done any Russian before.

I would suggest with having a built in ability with languages, he would have learnt very rapidly.
Also remember very little other entertainment than the radio and meeting people especially in his job..

Finally one point, the coal mines are in South Wales, that area is majority English speaking and has been for centuries..
Even today with enforced Welsh language teaching ( as a subject) in Welsh schools if you spoke Welsh to most in South Wales they would reply Dydw i ddim yn siarad Cymraeg
if I've copied that right it's Welsh for I don't speak Welsh...

[Singlemalt]

Thank you everyone. This all makes me wish I had paid more attention to family stories when my parents and grandparents were still alive. I don' think he lived in Wales all that long, maybe five years, I know my eldest aunt and I think my uncle were born there. He then moved back to Scotland and two more aunts were born there. He started working for a Missionary Society in Glasgow and they eventually sent him to the Ermineskin Cree Nation in Alberta where he looked after the peoples spiritual needs (not sure they needed it) and my Grandmother taught school. My father who was their youngest child was born there. My Grandfather later moved on to Ontario and up in his career. He retired from one of the largest Presbyterian Churches in Toronto. He certainly had a full and interesting life. I wish I knew more of it.

Living in a country with two official languages, and where dozens can be heard on the street everyday, I am quite aware some people are much better than others at picking up another language. It is also possible (even likely) that his Welsh was very rudimentary but enough to impress a little girl. If he did have an aptitude I now wonder how much Cree he may have picked up? I wish I had inherited this talent. I notice when I am in the French parts of Canada and I address someone in that language. They always switch quickly to English. My French must be very painful to their ears.

[bodhran4me]

Living in a country with two official languages, and where dozens can be heard on the street everyday, I am quite aware some people are much better than others at picking up another language. It is also possible (even likely) that his Welsh was very rudimentary but enough to impress a little girl. If he did have an aptitude I now wonder how much Cree he may have picked up? I wish I had inherited this talent. I notice when I am in the French parts of Canada and I address someone in that language. They always switch quickly to English. My French must be very painful to their ears.

The last time I tried to order a couple of coffees and doughnuts at Tim Hortons in french the girl looked rather perplexed and asked 'English?'. I replied in the affirmative and she beckoned over to a bilingual server, much to the relief of us all!

[The Q]

Thinking about it further, I wonder whether "speaking their language", was more of speaking as a working man, rather than as speaking like a very educated outsider..

[Singlemalt]

Thinking about it further, I wonder whether "speaking their language", was more of speaking as a working man, rather than as speaking like a very educated outsider..

As far as his Welsh goes I doubt we will ever know how good he really was. I only have my old aunts story that he could speak to the people in his congregation. As far as his Scots Gaelic I know he was quite fluent. He even used it professionally after coming to Canada. He had never driven a car until he came to Canada and was never confident driving. My father use to tell stories from his teens and 20's (late 1930's early 40's) of driving him all over central and SW Ontario to small rural Churches to conduct a Gaelic service for the older people. He must have attented a lot of these because though my Dad spoke no Gaelic he could sing a couple of hymns in the language which he liked to do at family gatherings.

[Allan Thomson]

Your story reflects many experiences I have with people from the highlands and islands moving south for work. Economic forces made many to head towards the central belt of Scotland where jobs and money were to be found. Similar social movements can be found across Britain such as people moving to Wales for work in coal mining. It has always been thus and there are no doubt similar examples everywhere.
As for a Gaelic speaker becoming fluent in Welsh, I have some doubts. Welsh, in common with Latin, pronounces every letter in a word whereas Gaelic is quite different with so many letters silent. There is certainly connections such as “aber” where Abertawe in Wales corresonds to Aberdeen in Scotland. Other coincidences are words such as “gareg” meaning rock in Welsh and “ Carrick” in Scotland but these are probably more related to the Brythonic peoples inhabiting these areas.

The Aber prefix is definitrly Brythonnic, and the Gaelic Inver is thecequivalent. I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that there was actually a place with an Aber prefix that changed to the Inver prefix within dovumentable history, but I can't remember where I read it or the specifics.