Sheriffmuir doublet and vest in tartan

[Highland Logan]

That’s great. But I do wonder where you are going to wear it? I think we have discussed the over egging of attire for minor formal events, so how many white tie events are you going to? You have also discovered that ultra formal events do not require such attire and I have to ask, is the expense really worth it? Only you can answer that, as its your cash!

I think part of the issue here is that you assume a evening event somewhere else follows the same style, and in many cases format of the ones you have and continue to attend.

I suggest that folks understand the subtleties, styles and correct (as much as that can be a thing) options for Highland dress, and then dress for the event they are attending.

We all here enjoy and celebrate the national dress of Scotland, so lets not start telling people how the events that they aren't attending are over dressed, and encourage and revel in the celebration of it.

Frank

[RichardtheLarge]

That’s great. But I do wonder where you are going to wear it? I think we have discussed the over egging of attire for minor formal events, so how many white tie events are you going to? You have also discovered that ultra formal events do not require such attire and I have to ask, is the expense really worth it? Only you can answer that, as its your cash!

I’m glad you bring up this point, Jock, as I think it touches on a broader dilemma in clothing and society:

I go to several dozen opera and orchestra events every year. For some events, galas and the like, white tie is to my mind the correct thing to wear to match my wife, who appears in an evening gown. A handful of people wear white tie to these same events—fellow eccentrics, by and large, whose company is most welcome!. More are in black tie. Still more are in lounge suits, some in jeans.

I recall attending a new Wagner production at the Washington National Opera a few years ago—I was seated, quite serendipitously, next to a pianist whom I had met the night before at a dinner party. He was wearing, much to my chagrin, the works: a tailcoat, top hat, opera cloak, etc.
My chagrin, however, was really for me. The man looked splendid, and I quite shabby next to him, in my jeans, dress shirt, and sport coat (by no means an unusual ensemble in the audience that day).

From a traditionalist’s point of view, he was entirely right and I was entirely wrong: the “thing to wear” to the opera, for many years, had been white tie. Then, for a brief moment, the trend became white tie for premieres and black tie for subsequent performances, and then finally the nebulous state of affairs today. Women, incidentally, are often dressing correctly in evening gowns for the opera, but their male dates are typically mismatching them in lounge suits. If one looks at the best seats in the hall, where celebrities and politicians and local magnates are seated, one still sees many tails and gowns.

I suppose that one must muddle over what to do in situations like these. Do we go with the flow, or take a stand for what we perceive to be “correct”? Very few places have or enforce any dress code anymore—in that context, we are then free to either swim upstream and choose what is in a technical sense “appropriate” or else swim downstream and wear jeans, or a tracksuit.

I sense that these questions don’t have easy answers, but I don’t think it’s fair to cast the pianist’s clothing—and mine, which is what I am getting at—exclusively as a vehicle of self-aggrandizement. I think that we largely make an effort to dress well, when we do it, as a gesture of respect to ourselves, our fellows, and our environment. In my view, this man in his tailcoat is making a gesture about his enduring respect for the art we both came to see and hear, as opposed to promoting himself. In truth, his demeanor was quite subdued for the performance, intermissions included.

I very much wish, in retrospect, that I had worn something to match his level of formality, rather than wishing that he were dressed down to match me. Perhaps he would think I was an odd duck to appear next to him in a tartan doublet. Perhaps he would be right.

[Jock Scot]

I’m glad you bring up this point, Jock, as I think it touches on a broader dilemma in clothing and society:

I go to several dozen opera and orchestra events every year. For some events, galas and the like, white tie is to my mind the correct thing to wear to match my wife, who appears in an evening gown. A handful of people wear white tie to these same events—fellow eccentrics, by and large, whose company is most welcome!. More are in black tie. Still more are in lounge suits, some in jeans.

I recall attending a new Wagner production at the Washington National Opera a few years ago—I was seated, quite serendipitously, next to a pianist whom I had met the night before at a dinner party. He was wearing, much to my chagrin, the works: a tailcoat, top hat, opera cloak, etc.
My chagrin, however, was really for me. The man looked splendid, and I quite shabbty next to him, in my jeans, dress shirt, and sport coat (by no means an unusual ensemble in the audience that day).

From a traditionalist’s point of view, he was entirely right and I was entirely wrong: the “thing to wear” to the opera, for many years, had been white tie. Then, for a brief moment, the trend became white tie for premieres and black tie for subsequent performances, and then finally the nebulous state of affairs today. Women, incidentally, are often dressing correctly in evening gowns for the opera, but their male dates are typically mismatching them in lounge suits. If one looks at the best seats in the hall, where celebrities and politicians and local magnates are seated, one still sees many tails and gowns.

I suppose that one must muddle over what to do in situations like these. Do we go with the flow, or take a stand for what we perceive to be “correct”? Very few places have or enforce any dress code anymore—in that context, we are then free to either swim upstream and choose what is in a technical sense “appropriate” or else swim downstream and wear jeans, or a tracksuit.

I sense that these questions don’t have easy answers, but I don’t think it’s fair to cast the pianist’s clothing—and mine, which is what I am getting at—exclusively as a vehicle of self-aggrandizement. I think that we largely make an effort to dress well, when we do it, as a gesture of respect to ourselves, our fellows, and our environment. In my view, this man in his tailcoat is making a gesture about his enduring respect for the art we both came to see and hear, as opposed to promoting himself. In truth, his demeanor was quite subdued for the performance, intermissions included.

I very much wish, in retrospect, that I had worn something to match his level of formality, rather than wishing that he were dressed down to match me. Perhaps he would think I was an odd duck to appear next to him in a tartan doublet. Perhaps he would be right.

Bravo!

[Jock Scot]

I think part of the issue here is that you assume a evening event somewhere else follows the same style, and in many cases format of the ones you have and continue to attend.

I suggest that folks understand the subtleties, styles and correct (as much as that can be a thing) options for Highland dress, and then dress for the event they are attending.

We all here enjoy and celebrate the national dress of Scotland, so lets not start telling people how the events that they aren't attending are over dressed, and enc ourage and revel in the celebration of it.

Frank

I don’t think anyone, least of all me, is “telling” or “assuming” anything. The evidence is before our eyes in words and pictures. Advice has been asked for and advice has been given and the reasons for that advice have also been included.

Personally, if anyone is going to dress for an event and particularly if it is in National Attire, then one should dress appropriately. Nothing more and nothing less and if advice is asked for, then I see no problem in helping out.

[Highland Logan]

I don’t think anyone, least of all me, is “telling” or “assuming” anything. The evidence is before our eyes in words and pictures. Advice has been asked for and advice has been given and the reasons for that advice have also been included.

Personally, if anyone is going to dress for an event and particularly if it is in National Attire, then one should dress appropriately. Nothing more and nothing less and if advice is asked for, then I see no problem in helping out.

Jock, be honest. If I had a dollar for every time you said someone was "over egging it"; especially Burns Dinners. You have lived and traveled in far different circles than most of us. The same could be said for each individual member on this forum.

You tend to approach all matters of higher dress from the stand point of your own, and never seem to realize that things might be different elsewhere. You like to say "that not done", but where, where is that. Before the passing of MoR, and the absence of Sandy on the board it appeared that many things were done, and not just on this side of the Atlantic.

One of my favorite quotes from the old "Scottish Clans and Their Tartans" is "*"... deprive the garb of its ornaments or reduce it to the drab monotony of Anglo-Saxon evening clothes are un-Scottish and contemptible". It's fair to say that the original Scottish author of that quote did not travel in the circles you did, or still do.

The last word always belongs to someone. Feel free after reflection to reply. I however will only be replying by PM if you chose to reach out by that method.

Frank

[Dr Bee]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/resou...onsive-gallery

To my eyes, what he is wearing seems to be indistinguishable from “highland black tie”, based on the absence of tartan/diced hose (I remember your remark that a black bow tie and jabot are often used interchangeably as “full dress” neckwear in Scotland). Indeed, the solid hose would be the distinction that would make the difference in my view.

We may assume that Mr Gove, probably with the approval of the Lord Chamberlain, considered himself correctly attired. As a fellow Scot it is with only a little reluctance that I would defend him in this - his attire is correct for him. He is wearing Highland evening dress according to his tastes and his tastes must govern what is correct for him to wear at what was probably as formal and as grand an event as any in the world.

However, not everyone's tastes will coincide with those of Mr Gove. And it is in the expression of personal taste that Highland dress scores so very highly. Highland dress, despite its many links to Victorian military uniforms, is NOT a uniform. It is because no form of Highland evening dress corresponds exactly to Saxon white-tie or black-tie that we are free to wear whatever we wish in terms of coatees or doublets; tartan, diced or plain hose; buckled or plain shoes etc., etc., etc. And despite what some may say, Highland evening dress in all these forms is worn not only to formal functions - it is worn by those attending Burns Suppers (rarely black-tie in Scotland), by those simply dining out, by those attending drinks parties and by those attending informal dinners as guests at the home of friends. Therefore almost all forms of Highland evening dress are at once not only more than 'black-tie' but also less than 'black-tie.'

When it comes to the kilt I consider it a golden rule never to criticize another man's attire - he's gone to effort and expense to obtain it and to wear it and it would be a crime to discourage him form wearing it again. Similarly, simply because I am not keen on wearing a coatee and I choose to wear a doublet and because I prefer diced hose rather than plain hose, I would hope to experience encouragement rather than eye-rolling. I am glad to report that over many years encouragement has been the norm.

[Jock Scot]

Jock, be honest. If I had a dollar for every time you said someone was "over egging it"; especially Burns Dinners. You have lived and traveled in far different circles than most of us. The same could be said for each individual member on this forum.

You tend to approach all matters of higher dress from the stand point of your own, and never seem to realize that things might be different elsewhere. You like to say "that not done", but where, where is that. Before the passing of MoR, and the absence of Sandy on the board it appeared that many things were done, and not just on this side of the Atlantic.

One of my favorite quotes from the old "Scottish Clans and Their Tartans" is "*"... deprive the garb of its ornaments or reduce it to the drab monotony of Anglo-Saxon evening clothes are un-Scottish and contemptible". It's fair to say that the original Scottish author of that quote did not travel in the circles you did, or still do.

The last word always belongs to someone. Feel free after reflection to reply. I however will only be replying by PM if you chose to reach out by that method.

Frank

Well alright Frank, perhaps we should agree to disagree?

[OC Richard]

Well you all know me...rather than look at the way somebody made a tartan jacket last week, or a generation ago, I'm going to look at 100 years ago, 200 years ago, and see what "the tradition" has to say about it.

150 years ago: bias jacket body, sleeves, and waistcoat.

Visually this makes the jacket & waistcoat an integrated thing, clearly separate from the kilt, though all are made of the same fabric.



NB the hose are a pattern ones sees often in Victorian Highland Dress: solid/selfcoloured with over-stripes. I'm used to seeing these in B&W photos, it's wonderful to see them in colour.

The shoes are fascinating too.

200 years ago: bias jacket front and sleeves, white satin waistcoat



250 years ago: bias sleeves, rest square.



250 years ago: all square, however jacket, waistcoat, and kilt are three different tartans.

[OC Richard]

The origin of the Sheriffmuir does mystify me. I've been able to date the beginnings of the Prince Charlie Coatee, the Montrose jacket, and the Kenmore Doublet but the Sheriffmuir doesn't appear in any of my vintage Highland Dress catalogues, suggesting a rather recent origin.

The Sheriffmuir strikes me as being inspired by the Highland Dress in 1822.

In truth we don't need to dress up in all this tartan jackets, jabots, diced hose, fancy shoes stuff for white tie events and if we do choose that attire its most certainly over-egging the attire for lesser events.

I don't have Jock's Highland perspective, but from my own perspective when I see somebody appear at a Scottish function in lace jabot and cuffs it looks old-fashioned, or dated, to me.

That's because one begins seeing lace jabots and cuffs in the early 20th century (ironically at a time when, in general, Highland Dress was becoming more sleek and simplified). The jabot seems to have been more or less part of a package created in the 1920s that included the Montrose jacket and narrow Evening Dress dirkless belt



The lacey look seems to have reached its Brigadoon-like zenith around WWII and began declining thereafter.

Here: a pipe band in kit one might see in the 1930s through 1950s, but which no upper-level band would dare wear in competition today.



NB the Victorians wore ordinary shirts and ties for all modes of Highland Dress; there is no lace to be seen in The Highlanders Of Scotland.

[RichardtheLarge]

Thank you for your input, Richard—what is your opinion on the “right neckwear” for highland formal, then? If the jabot and cuffs seem too brigadoonish and dated, would one be better off in a white bow tie? Or should one stick to black, confident in his knowledge that in a highland sense the black tie is an equivalent substitute?