"Viking Style" Brouge lacing?

[Tobus]

The issue isn't rules, but common sense.

I agree to some extent, but there are certain parts of Highland dress where common sense doesn't fully explain how to wear the thing without some context. This is why so many people put the pleats to the front. Their "common sense" tells them that it would be reasonable to sit on the flat part and have the swishy bits in front where your knees move. They just don't know any better, and the garment itself doesn't have an obvious front or back if one doesn't know which is which.

With ghillie brogue laces, I suspect that a large part of the issue here is the usual culprit: the kilt hire industry. They seem to take standard/traditional parts of the wardrobe and push them to the extreme. This is how we get flashes dangling halfway to one's ankles, ghillie laces up over the calf, kilts hanging below the knee, and those ridiculous rouche ties. I still haven't figured out whether the hire industry does this on purpose for some sense of "fashion forward" style, or if it's just run by people who can't tell the difference between proper and improper ways of wearing these items. Some part of it may be that these items are made in (and marketed from) places like Pakistan where they don't have the same cultural history of wearing the kilt. We can look at photos of Pakistani pipe bands to see how their way of wearing Highland wear has strayed significantly from Scottish tradition. This is not meant as any sort of slight, but it is clear that wearing the kilt in Pakistan is very much different than how it's worn in the Highlands. Some of this difference may be feeding back into the kilt industry and unintentionally leading people astray.

[Ivor]

Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the majority of kilt-wearers rely on the kilt hire industry. When I was younger it was necessary to hire a dinner suit(or tuxedo) do attend many functions and the attire provided was accepted without question. Here, however, we have a community who have decided they are above this hire industry and, as a result, hold it in a degree of disdain. Ghillie brogues are no longer to be worn, especially if, horror of horrors, the laces are twined up the legs, white socks are tantamount to a pact with the devil and, heaven forbid ruche ties are a definite no no. Has anyone ever stepped back and wondered whether their dress choices have degenerated into a strictly regimented and confined range of options. Do they stay awake at night wondering if their socks might clash with their kilt or their sporran be unsuitable to wear alongside their belt? I sometimes wonder how young people in Scotland or anywhere else for that matter, would regard the strict guidelines that must be followed here but I think I know the answer to that. They would dress in any way they saw fit.

[Liam]

Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the majority of kilt-wearers rely on the kilt hire industry. When I was younger it was necessary to hire a dinner suit(or tuxedo) do attend many functions and the attire provided was accepted without question. Here, however, we have a community who have decided they are above this hire industry and, as a result, hold it in a degree of disdain. Ghillie brogues are no longer to be worn, especially if, horror of horrors, the laces are twined up the legs, white socks are tantamount to a pact with the devil and, heaven forbid ruche ties are a definite no no. Has anyone ever stepped back and wondered whether their dress choices have degenerated into a strictly regimented and confined range of options. Do they stay awake at night wondering if their socks might clash with their kilt or their sporran be unsuitable to wear alongside their belt? I sometimes wonder how young people in Scotland or anywhere else for that matter, would regard the strict guidelines that must be followed here but I think I know the answer to that. They would dress in any way they saw fit.

I haven't entered into the fray on this subject, but will now. Ivor, I believe you are wrong. Kilt wearers on this forum wear kilts far more that those who rely on the kilt hire industry for a wedding or a Burns' supper. We are not above the kilt hire industry, far from it, but they are not in the business of tailoring or providing quality or bespoke apparel. They are in the business of providing rental outfits and out of necessity have a limited selection of tartan, sizes etc. As for your comment about the young people, yes they will dress however they wish -
often for the shock value, (we all were young once) .... and the tartan army is a fine example, and I think they are great. Those in Canada will understand that I am a Saskatchewan Roughrider supporter and we can wear some pretty outlandish outfits in support of our team including water melons on our heads and yes in my case a kilt.
Slainte....

[Silmakhor]

There's nothing wrong with white/ecru kilt hose - the issue is that they became sort of the default, which of course people want to get away from. And the only problem with "viking lacing" is that it doesn't really work. And there's nothing wrong with kilt hire at all - it provides a valued service that, one would guess, helps keep the broader tradition alive.

If you want to check out "restrictive," look into the conventions around Norwegian bunad.

[FossilHunter]

Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the majority of kilt-wearers rely on the kilt hire industry. When I was younger it was necessary to hire a dinner suit(or tuxedo) do attend many functions and the attire provided was accepted without question.

To be fair, the tuxedo hire industry is trash as well. In the US at least.

[Jock Scot]

Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the majority of kilt-wearers rely on the kilt hire industry. When I was younger it was necessary to hire a dinner suit(or tuxedo) do attend many functions and the attire provided was accepted without question. Here, however, we have a community who have decided they are above this hire industry and, as a result, hold it in a degree of disdain. Ghillie brogues are no longer to be worn, especially if, horror of horrors, the laces are twined up the legs, white socks are tantamount to a pact with the devil and, heaven forbid ruche ties are a definite no no. Has anyone ever stepped back and wondered whether their dress choices have degenerated into a strictly regimented and confined range of options. Do they stay awake at night wondering if their socks might clash with their kilt or their sporran be unsuitable to wear alongside their belt? I sometimes wonder how young people in Scotland or anywhere else for that matter, would regard the strict guidelines that must be followed here but I think I know the answer to that. They would dress in any way they saw fit.

Let me say right away that there is nothing wrong with kilt hire. Those that wear it are usually not regular kilt wearers and use the services of the kilt hire industry on an occasional as needed basis. From that perspective, that is a very sensible financial option.

However the garments offered by the hire industry cannot ever be described accurately as traditional kilt attire. Where the discussions go deeper on this website is persuading, convincing even, those who have no kilt attire heritage to assist them to alter their preconceived ideas and I have to say , ignorance too, mainly gained from internet pictures that are posted by the hire industry and I am afraid the “ look at me” pictures of the enthusiastic but “uneducated”kilt wearer who genuinely thinks what he is wearing traditional kilt attire.

Any kilt attire is expensive so guidance from those that know is really helpful to those who want to know and can afford to purchase their own kilt outfit. Those of us who have been on this website for a while, have seen many “look at me” pictures of a person who has spent their hard earned loot on the incorrect garments, thinking its traditional and to those who know and are kind enough and let it be said, brave enough, to disappoint an enthusiastic new kilt wearer that his new attire is not traditional.

Some receiving that news are grateful and some are mightily disappointed and are more than a little miffed. I don’t blame them! This website does sterling work in steering the kilt newcomer and too often the not so new, newcomer, in the right direction despite the "heavy flak" that often comes with that good advice.

[Ivor]

What sparked this discussion really was viewing this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hvHeTArCnYQ - showing groups of Scottish country dancers of which the majority of the men taking part are obviously wearing the dreaded white socks. This raises an obvious question as to what is right or does it just boil down to a matter of personal choice?

[Jock Scot]

What sparked this discussion really was viewing this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hvHeTArCnYQ - showing groups of Scottish country dancers of which the majority of the men taking part are obviously wearing the dreaded white socks. This raises an obvious question as to what is right or does it just boil down to a matter of personal choice?

Well, yes it is personal choice, but.........

In my youth, some 8 decades ago, we were taught the difference between civilian kilt attire, military kilt attire, band kilt attire and entertainers kilt attire. When seen like that and understood, it was/is easy to differentiate one from another. It still holds true today.


I have just looked at the video that was mentioned here and bearing in mind the above, my instant thought is that these people are entertainers, and are dressed in this case for dancing. Therefore they are not dressed in traditional civilian kilt attire and should not be used as an an example of THCD. These people in the video are attired perfectly for their activity, entertaining.

[FossilHunter]

What sparked this discussion really was viewing this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hvHeTArCnYQ - showing groups of Scottish country dancers of which the majority of the men taking part are obviously wearing the dreaded white socks. This raises an obvious question as to what is right or does it just boil down to a matter of personal choice?

Some questions that occurred to me as I watched this video.

-Are these men habitual kilt wearers?

-If not, is their outfit more akin to costume/uniform worn for the dance?

-Are they wearing actual ghillie brogues or dancing ghillies? More akin to ballet slippers. Are those laced differently? I honestly don’t know.

-Is country dance hard on socks, especially when the dancers practice regularly? Is so, could cheap white socks be chosen for economy over style?

A point Jock has made in the past is that one has to be careful when trying to gauge traditional dress from photos, pipers, royals, etc. Context is vital or all kinds of erroneous assumptions might be made.

[OC Richard]

What sparked this discussion really was viewing this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hvHeTArCnYQ - showing groups of Scottish country dancers of which the majority of the men taking part are obviously wearing the dreaded white socks.

That video is from 11 years ago, when white socks hadn't yet become unfashionable in some circles.

Fashions come and go, and with Highland Dress the thing that changes most often are the hose.

White hose suddenly became standard in kilt hire and the pipe band world and with many other kiltwearers in the late 1980s into the early 1990s only to become suddenly out of fashion around 2010.

(I'm talking the pure gleaming white hose, not the ecru/cream/offwhite hose which were in fashion for the 15 years or so prior to the pure white hose replacing them.)