Ghillie brogues - why the dislike and resentment..?

[OC Richard]

I'm looking into getting a pair of the dancing type.

Are you going to be doing Country dancing? Or perhaps Highland dancing?

Those are the very Ghillies for that.

But they're not designed for being used as shoes in the ordinary sense, being thinner than even Native American moccasins.

Perhaps more suitable would be the Ghillie-inspired footwear I've seen.

They strike me as a hybrid of modern Ghillie-brogues, Native American moccasins, and the RR McIan illustrations.

https://nativearth.net/product/ghillies/

This particular maker is in California and they had a booth at one of our Highland Games.

In person the shoes looked sturdy and well-made and would stand up to quite a bit of use. I've seen these being worn at local Renaissance Fairs.

[timemeddler]

Are you going to be doing Country dancing? Or perhaps Highland dancing?

Those are the very Ghillies for that.

But they're not designed for being used as shoes in the ordinary sense, being thinner than even Native American moccasins.

Perhaps more suitable would be the Ghillie-inspired footwear I've seen.

They strike me as a hybrid of modern Ghillie-brogues, Native American moccasins, and the RR McIan illustrations.

https://nativearth.net/product/ghillies/

This particular maker is in California and they had a booth at one of our Highland Games.

In person the shoes looked sturdy and well-made and would stand up to quite a bit of use. I've seen these being worn at local Renaissance Fairs.

square dancing actually.

[OC Richard]

square dancing actually.

With Scottish Country Dancing you're up on your toes whenever you're in motion, which is why the dancing Ghillies are so thin and flexible. They don't really have soles per se.

Now with Square Dancing the whole foot can be in contact with the floor right? So you'll probably want actual shoes with some kind of soles.

Actually back in the 1980s when I was an avid Country Dancer my partner and I were out at a folk festival and we joined in with the Square Dancers. Seemed to us that the two kinds of dancing had all the same basic sorts of steps, though they called them different names. Once we learned what names went with our familiar steps we had no problem following the caller.

And we thought "how cool would it be to have a caller in Scottish Country Dancing!"

Because we have fixed dances that we have to learn and memorise in advance.

[OC Richard]

A week ago I visited Vindolanda, a Roman fort a bit south of Hadrian's Wall.

(For those not aware the Romans manned forts both north and south of the wall. No-one knows what system, concept, or purpose these forts, and indeed the wall itself, fit into.)

Due to the oxygen-free bacteria-free soil leather, wood, cloth, etc are perfectly preserved and over five thousand Roman shoes have been recovered. (The shoes found were ones which had been discarded by their owners, thus the poor condition of many.)

Of the few on display, these had an uncanny resemblance the proto-Ghillies drawn by the Allen Brothers and "RR McIan".

Being as the Vindolanda shoes weren't discovered until 1973 one wonders just what the Allen Brothers based their "ancient Highland" footwear on. Is the resemblance coincidence, or something else?

[figheadair]

A week ago I visited Vindolanda, a Roman fort a bit south of Hadrian's Wall.

(For those not aware the Romans manned forts both north and south of the wall. No-one knows what system, concept, or purpose these forts, and indeed the wall itself, fit into.)

Due to the oxygen-free bacteria-free soil leather, wood, cloth, etc are perfectly preserved and over five thousand Roman shoes have been recovered. (The shoes found were ones which had been discarded by their owners, thus the poor condition of many.)

Of the few on display, these had an uncanny resemblance the proto-Ghillies drawn by the Allen Brothers and "RR McIan".

Being as the Vindolanda shoes weren't discovered until 1973 one wonders just what the Allen Brothers based their "ancient Highland" footwear on. Is the resemblance coincidence, or something else?

We will probably never know whether that Allan Brothers' design was coincidence or cultural plagiarism. As you have noted before, the basic style is fairly ubiquitous and, accepting that wheels have to be round, if one were to design a new one it would probably follow the tried and tested shape.

[figheadair]

BTW, isn't Vindolanda fantastic. What a treasure.

[Jock Scot]

BTW, isn't Vindolanda fantastic. What a treasure.

British understatement at its best!

[Wandering Spark]

A week ago I visited Vindolanda, a Roman fort a bit south of Hadrian's Wall.

(For those not aware the Romans manned forts both north and south of the wall. No-one knows what system, concept, or purpose these forts, and indeed the wall itself, fit into.)

Due to the oxygen-free bacteria-free soil leather, wood, cloth, etc are perfectly preserved and over five thousand Roman shoes have been recovered. (The shoes found were ones which had been discarded by their owners, thus the poor condition of many.)

Of the few on display, these had an uncanny resemblance the proto-Ghillies drawn by the Allen Brothers and "RR McIan".

Being as the Vindolanda shoes weren't discovered until 1973 one wonders just what the Allen Brothers based their "ancient Highland" footwear on. Is the resemblance coincidence, or something else?

I think I found the original "ghillie":
H.TA 7 NMS Perthshire shoe.jpg
It was purchased by the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland in 1852, who described it as: "Fine specimen of Ancient Celtic Shoe, curiously wrought in ornamental open-work, found six feet beneath the surface, near Callander, Perthshire.” (Source: https://journals.socantscot.org/inde...icle/view/3893)
The actual discovery date isn't recorded, but it easily could have been 8 or 10 years earlier. Another item purchased by the Society in 1852 was discovered in 1837. The Callander shoe certainly bears a striking resemblance to the Allen Brothers drawings.
Fake Stuarts 17thc crop.png
Fake Stuarts ghillies crop.png

Despite the Society of Antiquaries identifying the Callander shoe as 'Celtic', I'm pretty sure it's actually Roman. The Callander shoe more closely resembles the Vindolanda shoes in cut and construction than it does any of the shoes that are confirmed to be Irish or Scottish. (Also, there is a Roman fortification near Callander.) The shoe is now in the collection of the NMS. https://www.nms.ac.uk/search-our-col...ts?entry=31058

The other reason I think you're correct about ghillie brogues being a 19th c. invention is that the lacing setup looks suspiciously similar to early 19th c. English fashion. Just look at these 1804-1810 English women's shoes:
early 1800s womans shoes.jpg