Clan societies in UK

[User]

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There seems to be something of the inverse square law at play in these matters, and the further away from the point of origin, the stronger the passion is felt. So, those clansmen who return to Scotland from overseas display far greater exitement and enthusiasm for a Gathering than those who live locally. It's not that locals feel less strongly per se, but they have the relaxed familiarity everyone feels when at home.
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As one would expect, that effect applies to all humankind. My wife comes from a culture that never experienced a diaspora. But as she is far from her homeland, she now has an interest in aspects of her culture that she was indifferent toward when she was surrounded by it.

I can only guess as to the reasons why. But I suspect she yearns to maintain a connection. When you're living in a culture, no maintenance is required. As you mentioned, when you live in a culture, whatever you do IS a part of that culture. Being removed from it creates a perspective shift.

[Father Bill]

As one would expect, that effect applies to all humankind. My wife comes from a culture that never experienced a diaspora. But as she is far from her homeland, she now has an interest in aspects of her culture that she was indifferent toward when she was surrounded by it.

I can only guess as to the reasons why. But I suspect she yearns to maintain a connection. When you're living in a culture, no maintenance is required. As you mentioned, when you live in a culture, whatever you do IS a part of that culture. Being removed from it creates a perspective shift.

Something that is sometimes sneered at by some of those in the country of the culture's origin, annoyed and thinking, in this case, that we want to be more Scottish than the Scots.

No, but we are anxious that we do not lose that which is diluted by all those other cultures and customs around us and thus endangered to us through slow wasting away unless we nourish it vigorously and often.

[EagleJCS]

One thing that puzzles me is the idea that clans only existed in the Highlands. I have read in many different sources that the Border Reivers were also called clans and were recognized as such as early as the 12th century.

[Liam]

I find it interesting that on this forum North Americans are often lumped together as an homogeneous lot.
“It (and others like it asked recently) make me wonder what the North American view of Scotland is.” for example.
We are far from homogeneous in our views and have very different opinions on many subjects including our Scottish ancestry, clan societies etc.
just saying….

[Troglodyte]

I find it interesting that on this forum North Americans are often lumped together as an homogeneous lot.
“It (and others like it asked recently) make me wonder what the North American view of Scotland is.” for example.
We are far from homogeneous in our views and have very different opinions on many subjects including our Scottish ancestry, clan societies etc.
just saying….

You are quite right, of course.

But, as things appear to us in Scotland, there tends to be a way that is recognised as 'North American' in the same way that there is something equally recognisable as 'Australian and New Zealand' in views or attitudes. There is distinct similarity in the Canadian and American ways and views that are different from the others.

This is an observation only, and must not be taken as a slight or in any way derogatory.

In my clan association's activities, the American (ie, the independant USA organisation) does things quite separately from the home (ie, Scottish) lot, of which the Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders are branches.

The American association has its own set of rules, principles, aims, etc, and its own president, vice-president, etc, and acknowledges the chief as simply that, the chief - he has no part to play with either influence or advice, and no status other than titular chief. They organise their own programme of events and activities (even when attending Gatherings at the homelands in Scotland) that exclude the other nations.

As the Canadian branch is so small, and as it is so convenient to do so, it attaches itself to the American association and joins in with their gatherings and similar activities. Similarities in needs and interests are naturally going to follow.

When it comes to our membership numbers, Americans make up more than the rest of the world combined, so taking a majority rule approach is easy to understand. But it is a pity that they see themselves as independent, and operate in a kind of isolationist way. The Aussies and Kiwis do things as if they are coming home, and get stuck in.

I have heard the chief say on more than one occasion, that he fears the dwindling membership in the UK (particularly in Scotland itself) will eventually see the original clan association fail at home. The size and wealth of the American association (which is run as if it is a large commercial corporation) will be all that remains.

Ours is a relatively small clan, but the chief and his family, along with representatives of the cadet families, provide officers of the association, and clansmen make up the council and membership. The chief (although elected) quite rightly is chairman. Consequently, the clan still operates much in a way that would be recognised by long-gone generations, so it would be sad to see this dwindle to nothing.

As they already operate independently, our American cousins see nothing worrying in the failure of the original association, and the idea that it would go from a virtually still functioning clan to a same-name membership club seems of no consequence. Nothing would change on their side of the Atlantic.

The North Americans (both Canadians and Americans) are not wrong as such, but their shared different views and attitudes are seen unintentional risk to the clan's survival. There is irony here, as the whole point of the clan association is to ensure its preservation as a clan.

All of which goes to make me wonder what the North American view of Sotland is. Looking out from the inside is quite different from looking in from the outside, and it helps to know what those outside are looking at - or hope to see.

[Jock Scot]

My wife and I have been and still are, friends of the fairly recent head of the North American Clan MacLeod Society(I think I have the title correct). He and his wife have been our friends for too many years to count and stay with us for a few days when they are"over". I think that they, with other MacLeods come over to Skye to hold their "Clan Gathering" at Dunvegan every five years. They are always amazed that the "British MacLeods" are rarely seen in numbers. We are always kindly invited to attend and to accompany them, but the event holds no interest for us. Looking at their itinerary, it is always way so over the top for us so we politely decline. The reason we give is that Dunvegan is not the same as it was when Chief John------who was a tad more than an acquaintance to us----- was about and besides, the salmon may be running!

Many times over the years we have discussed with them the doings of the various Macleod societies around the world and there is no doubt about it, they, the North American Clan society, put a lot of time, effort and money into doing good things, particularly for MacLeods. They cannot understand why the UK Clan Society is so undersubscribed and seemingly disinterested and always has been. After much discussion over many years and many drams we have come to the conclusion that the Scottish(British) just do things in their more low key way or, in modern parlance "less in your face" way.

I think the same holds for the differences between the North American(Canada and USA) way and the Native Scottish way. There is no doubt in my mind that the two sides of the Atlantic see and do things very, very differently, as this website demonstrates almost daily.

[FossilHunter]

You are quite right, of course.

But, as things appear to us in Scotland, there tends to be a way that is recognised as 'North American' in the same way that there is something equally recognisable as 'Australian and New Zealand' in views or attitudes. There is distinct similarity in the Canadian and American ways and views that are different from the others.

This is an observation only, and must not be taken as a slight or in any way derogatory.

In my clan association's activities, the American (ie, the independant USA organisation) does things quite separately from the home (ie, Scottish) lot, of which the Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders are branches.

The American association has its own set of rules, principles, aims, etc, and its own president, vice-president, etc, and acknowledges the chief as simply that, the chief - he has no part to play with either influence or advice, and no status other than titular chief. They organise their own programme of events and activities (even when attending Gatherings at the homelands in Scotland) that exclude the other nations.

As the Canadian branch is so small, and as it is so convenient to do so, it attaches itself to the American association and joins in with their gatherings and similar activities. Similarities in needs and interests are naturally going to follow.

When it comes to our membership numbers, Americans make up more than the rest of the world combined, so taking a majority rule approach is easy to understand. But it is a pity that they see themselves as independent, and operate in a kind of isolationist way. The Aussies and Kiwis do things as if they are coming home, and get stuck in.

I have heard the chief say on more than one occasion, that he fears the dwindling membership in the UK (particularly in Scotland itself) will eventually see the original clan association fail at home. The size and wealth of the American association (which is run as if it is a large commercial corporation) will be all that remains.

Ours is a relatively small clan, but the chief and his family, along with representatives of the cadet families, provide officers of the association, and clansmen make up the council and membership. The chief (although elected) quite rightly is chairman. Consequently, the clan still operates much in a way that would be recognised by long-gone generations, so it would be sad to see this dwindle to nothing.

As they already operate independently, our American cousins see nothing worrying in the failure of the original association, and the idea that it would go from a virtually still functioning clan to a same-name membership club seems of no consequence. Nothing would change on their side of the Atlantic.

The North Americans (both Canadians and Americans) are not wrong as such, but their shared different views and attitudes are seen unintentional risk to the clan's survival. There is irony here, as the whole point of the clan association is to ensure its preservation as a clan.

All of which goes to make me wonder what the North American view of Sotland is. Looking out from the inside is quite different from looking in from the outside, and it helps to know what those outside are looking at - or hope to see.

Some of these issues may not be purely cultural. It’s possible that there are legal issues involved in running a non-profit organization in the different countries that contributes to a relative lack of cooperation.

[Troglodyte]

Some of these issues may not be purely cultural. It’s possible that there are legal issues involved in running a non-profit organization in the different countries that contributes to a relative lack of cooperation.

I have no doubt that is true.

However, my point about how my clan association is run, was to show that only American clansmen want to do things on their own and separately from the rest of the clan - the others (Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, etc) are members of the original Scottish association.

There is no practical reason why the American association should be a completely separate and independent organisation, operating for American clansmen only. The message this gives others is that they either see themselves as the true clan, or not as part of the real clan at all. This, naturally, engenders different ideas of what it means to be a clan member.

The need to do things (the same things, for the most part) separately from the rest of the clan shows a distinctly different set of ideas, principles, needs and desires at a clan level in America. I guess this is why the question at the start of this thread was posed - and which might have been asked in these terms: 'Why do Scots at home in Scotland do Scottish cultural things differently?'

Our clan association is all about the preservation of its history, cuture and traditions, and the wearing of the clan tartans is only 'encouraged' as there is no obligation to do so. Having a great selection of kilts in different tartans is an exceptionally rare thing in Scotland.

I once heard my chief say at one of our Gatherings when the American group took themselves off on their own, that 'They always want a pageant...' It seems that the history/clan culture thing is all very well for the others, but our American kin prefer to dress-up and have a parade. Tartan banners and all.

I cannot speak for any other clan, but that's not our way - which is what I think Kilted 2000 has noticed and so poses the question.

My impression is that what and how we do clan things in Scotland is a disappointment to our American visitors much of the time. A kind of 'Is this all there is..?' mood prevails.

[Troglodyte]

There has been a development with my clan since my last reply to this thread, that is relevant.

This coming year, 2025, will be the millenium or the 1,000th anniversary since the clan's traditional founding. Naturally enough, plans to celebrate the occasion have been in action for a while, and are due to centre around the chief's castle as usual.

Being somewhat involved myself, I have been keeping a closer eye on progress than many might, so I was astonished to receive information from the American association (which operates independently and separately from the rest of the clan) that they have organised their own separate gathering at the castle, announced dates, and are taking bookings.

A recent chat with the chief had him telling me it was all rather awkward (mild understatement, this), as it takes into no account the arrangements we is Scotland are making, and the tricky position he is now in. It seems the American association expect the chief to fall into line, play ball, and have 'open doors' for the week they are in Scotland.

The open doors thing is the chief's usual hospitality, and it has always been the way, but this secondary American-only Gathering can be seen as a good illustration of why there appears to be a difference between American clan activities and those in the homeland, that Kilted2000 has noticed.

Two things will come from this, as I see it. One will be a disappointing turn-out for the clan's proper Gathering, for the Americans, who normally make up good numbers, will be absent; and the the Americans will get entirely the wrong impression of how the clan functions at home in Scotland - if it is seen to function at all.

It's all a bit puzzling to us.

Did we upset or disappoint our American kin so much last time that they now no longer want to come to our Gatherings, or have they got so fed up with waiting for the finished programme of events to be announced that they have gone off and done their own thing?

Our association has always operated as a kind of clan-themed history society, with its traditions, culture and historical legacy being the main motivation. Pageant has never had a place, and the local Highland games are usually enough to satisfy needs in this direction. As regards tartan, the romantic nonsense that surrounds all that has always been well-understood, and, officially, the association only encourages the wearing - it is by no means obligatory - and only a small proportion actually do.

Other than having pipers to provide thrilling sound at the opening, and sometimes a ceilidh on the last evening, we have nothing in the way of parade or performance. Our way is to have displays, exhibitions, talks and demonstrations on such topics as recent archaeological findings at the castle, the latest from the DNA project, and suchlike.

But I am keen to see what our American cousins get up to, when they have no natives around to spoil their fun.

[Jock Scot]

There has been a development with my clan since my last reply to this thread, that is relevant.

This coming year, 2025, will be the millenium or the 1,000th anniversary since the clan's traditional founding. Naturally enough, plans to celebrate the occasion have been in action for a while, and are due to centre around the chief's castle as usual.

Being somewhat involved myself, I have been keeping a closer eye on progress than many might, so I was astonished to receive information from the American association (which operates independently and separately from the rest of the clan) that they have organised their own separate gathering at the castle, announced dates, and are taking bookings.

A recent chat with the chief had him telling me it was all rather awkward (mild understatement, this), as it takes into no account the arrangements we is Scotland are making, and the tricky position he is now in. It seems the American association expect the chief to fall into line, play ball, and have 'open doors' for the week they are in Scotland.




The open doors thing is the chief's usual hospitality, and it has always been the way, but this secondary American-only Gathering can be seen as a good illustration of why there appears to be a difference between American clan activities and those in the homeland, that Kilted2000 has noticed.

Two things will come from this, as I see it. One will be a disappointing turn-out for the clan's proper Gathering, for the Americans, who normally make up good numbers, will be absent; and the the Americans will get entirely the wrong impression of how the clan functions at home in Scotland - if it is seen to function at all.

It's all a bit puzzling to us.

Did we upset or disappoint our American kin so much last time that they now no longer want to come to our Gatherings, or have they got so fed up with waiting for the finished programme of events to be announced that they have gone off and done their own thing?

Our association has always operated as a kind of clan-themed history society, with its traditions, culture and historical legacy being the main motivation. Pageant has never had a place, and the local Highland games are usually enough to satisfy needs in this direction. As regards tartan, the romantic nonsense that surrounds all that has always been well-understood, and, officially, the association only encourages the wearing - it is by no means obligatory - and only a small proportion actually do.

Other than having pipers to provide thrilling sound at the opening, and sometimes a ceilidh on the last evening, we have nothing in the way of parade or performance. Our way is to have displays, exhibitions, talks and demonstrations on such topics as recent archaeological findings at the castle, the latest from the DNA project, and suchlike.

But I am keen to see what our American cousins get up to, when they have no natives around to spoil their fun.

Oh Dear.