Clan societies in UK

[Troglodyte]

I wonder if the American group is even aware that you are holding a different gathering? Is that something that has even been mentioned? Have the American group's leaders been asked why they have organized their own events? I suspect that the average member of the American Society wouldn't even think that their event wasn't the same as the Clan's.

As for pageantry, if the Americans are used to seeing that at home I can also see why paying the thousands of dollars to visit Scotland and getting much more subdued displays and archeological talks would be a let down. It might even be so subdued that they don't recognize it as a celebration at all.

This is all speculation, of course.

That's just the thing - they were fully aware..!

I know, because I was the one who informed them of the potential dates for our Gathering, and had been acting as unofficial liaison officer to keep the Americans informed of the clan's plans.

Which is why their own separate programme and timing is all the more surprising.

When I say there is no pageantry, what I mean is it is unlike what I see at Games in the USA, where the clans form up and parade and shout their slogans and all that kind of thing. We have no blue-faced, great kilt wearing and claymore-weilding characters. And, is has to be admitted, many in Scotland find the Kirkin' o' the Tartan comical.

That kind of parading and dressing-up fun is great, and I discourage no-one if that's their thing, but our Gatherings are more authentic and genuine in their real Highland cultural style. Our Gatherings usually take the form of an initial mustering in the grounds of the chief's castle and a procession led by pipers to the main entrance, where the chief and his family are waiting in welcome.

Formalities are gone through, castle doors are thrown open, and the events get underway. There is only so much that can be done within the castle, but these tend to be things that cannot be found elsewhere - much of it is very museum-like. Outside, it is more what you might expect, with all kinds of entertainments of the festival kind. In addition, the usually three-day Gathering is timed to fit in with the local Highland Games, and these are arranged to be part of the Gathering. Coach-trip visits to significant locations for informal ceremonies or presentations also feature.

Sometimes it is the second night, sometimes the last night, but there is usually a ceilidh of sorts - either formal where splendid ancient artefact-style Highland dress gets pulled out of the attic for the occasion, and it's a proper sit-down meal, or it may be a more casual buffet and less dressing-up. We like to vary these things, but we party big-time, Highland style and it's a great atmosphere - sadly, though (at least at the Gatherings I have attended), our American contingent always leaves as the music starts. No-one understands why.

I believe you are right about the average American member's awareness. I have long had the impression that the American association regards itself as The Clan, and they are aware that there may be some others with the same name in Scotland and possibly elsewhere. But that these have no relevance - as I said before, the chief is regarded as such in title only: the real chief is the American assocoation's president for that year, with badges, chains of office, feathers and all.

What I hear a surprising amount of from our American membership, is the comparison between members of who is a truer or more genuine member of the clan. DNA testing has done much to back up some claims, with results 'proving' they are related to the chief sometime in the past 15 generations or so. This baffles us back at home, where such things have no real value - as everyone has a connection of some sort.

Being a member of a clan, especially these days, is much more about attitude and sense of belonging than of surname. If you accept the chief as the chief, you are a clansman. Simple as that. And this is why our clan's objectives opens the membership to anyone who has a genuine interest in the clan and it's history.

It's a good thing, too! Our long-serving association committee secretary has the name of our clan's arch-enemy neighbouring clan, whose chief and family are often guests of honour at our Gatherings. I often wonder what our ancestors of 300 years ago would make of that.

And it's good in another way. The DNA programme has revealed that what has alwyas been regarded as a branch of the clan originating in the opposite side of Scotland, but with the reason for the separation being a mystery, has, in fact, no connection at all. It seems they adopted the Aglicised version of our name as theirs sounds similar in Gaelic. Strictly speaking, these are not clan at all, and a good chunk of the American association's members descend from these mystery folk - and many now resent the DNA findings. It is only slight, but I have become aware of a them-and-us difference forming.

But, as a clan back home in Scotland, we are indifferent. As I said about our clan's membership conditions, these mystery folk meet the requirements and are perfectly accepted - most importantly by the chief. Indeed, it can be seen as the same as in the old days when wandering people would seek out the protection of a welcoming clan chief, and would be absorbed seemlessly into the new clan within a generation.

It's a great pity our American kin see themselves as, and so want to be, separate from the clan still in Scotland.

[Wareyin]

It sounds as though the problem lies with the elected president then. That's a shame, as I would think the regular members would have been quite happy to attend the actual clan celebration as you describe it. I misunderstood your terms and so had the wrong impression.

From my experience on the US side of the pond, the blue face paint and claymore wielders are a tolerated minority. Not how most of us wish to celebrate Scottish culture, but not worthy of more than an eye roll at the Highland Games when you see them. I think of them no worse than those wearing their kilts backwards, and would be surprised if that type of person would spend the substantial time and money required to attend a 3 day event in Scotland.

[kilted2000]

So how can Americans who want to participate in clan events do so? I’ve never been to a Highland Games or a kirkin of the tartan, but I am very interested in history particularly the history of how in less than 100 years highland symbols came to represent all Scotland. How groups such as the Highland Society of London created this identity for themselves. To me the fact that the Allen brothers, Queen Victoria, Scott, and Wilson’s of Bannockburn had a hand I created the image of highland dress as we know it today is what makes it interesting. Clan tartans didn’t come down from the mists of time.
Really my original question was asking about who and why do some Scots interest themselves in these identities and how do they view them. Heritage is more about the present than the past and I’m fascinated in how the past, or versions of the past, are used and interacted with by people today.
I hope these thoughts make some sense, I’m writing at the end of a long and tiring American thanksgiving day.

[Jock Scot]

So how can Americans who want to participate in clan events do so? I’ve never been to a Highland Games or a kirkin of the tartan, but I am very interested in history particularly the history of how in less than 100 years highland symbols came to represent all Scotland. How groups such as the Highland Society of London created this identity for themselves. To me the fact that the Allen brothers, Queen Victoria, Scott, and Wilson’s of Bannockburn had a hand I created the image of highland dress as we know it today is what makes it interesting. Clan tartans didn’t come down from the mists of time.
Really my original question was asking about who and why do some Scots interest themselves in these identities and how do they view them. Heritage is more about the present than the past and I’m fascinated in how the past, or versions of the past, are used and interacted with by people today.
I hope these thoughts make some sense, I’m writing at the end of a long and tiring American thanksgiving day.

Good points.

I really can only speak for myself, but I think most of my answers are fairly universal throughout Scotland.

So speaking for myself, I rarely give my Clan a thought, even when wearing the kilt I rarely give the tartan a thought. I only wear one tartan but I have to admit it is a rare occasion that I actually give it a thought. Yes I know some of the history of my Clan but it most certainly is not in my mind very often, perhaps something like once every month or so. Do I go to Clan events? No. Am I interested in Clan events? No.

Do I do Clan/tartan parades? No.
Kirkin the tartan? No. In fact until I joined this website I had never heard of it. As I understand it, it is a modern non Scottish concoction.
I am fully aware of the romantic history of tartan and the many fanciful ideas that spring from them. I actually rarely give them a thought, other than not taking them seriously. But...............

BUT, I cannot ignore the REAL history, we in Scotland live with a thousand years, or more, of Scottish history all around us! It is hard, impossible even, to ignore! Do I know the historical details of most of it? No. Some of it, perhaps a tad better.

Do I care what Clan anyone belongs to? No. Do I care what part of Scotland those from outwith Scotland and the areas their ancestors came from? No.

So Clan razz-ma-tazz impresses me not. A thousand years and more of Clan involvement with Scottish history on the other hand impresses me a lot and is worth celebrating modestly, even though I rarely think about it.

[Troglodyte]

So how can Americans who want to participate in clan events do so?

Really my original question was asking about who and why do some Scots interest themselves in these identities and how do they view them.

I guess your dilemma is what has led our American kin to do their own thing...

The only way to participate in clan events is to come to Scotland and join in with what the locals are doing, even if that is less than you really want.

To modern day Scots (from what I experience), the clans are a nice idea but mostly irrelevant. Clan societies and associations (both unnecessary terms when it comes to clans) are really there to preserve the clans' traditions and history, and provide a focal point for those with an interest in their cultural past.

As I mentioned, our association is really a form of history society with the clan as its subject. Much has been done to preserve factual record, dispel myth and steady the romance and nonsense that flourished in the 19th century. The Gatherings are really for like-minded kindred spirits to get together and enjoy each other's enthusiasm and share knowledge or research. There is little desire for pageantry as this is abundantly catered for in the Highland Games season.

There are so many games held around Scotland that it is possible to go to several each week if you wanted. These games play up their local clan connections to a degree (such as with the Gordons at Aboyne) but this is incidental to, rather than a motivation for, the games.

Asking the average Scot how he feels about the clans is perhaps like asking and Englishman how he feels about the Normans or Saxons. He might know a bit about them, and may even know that he has a Norman name, but that will be the extent of it. The lack of interest is due to irrelevance to modern life.

This is a pity - which is why a forum such as this is an important link for those who do have an interest, and are eager share their enthusiasm with fellow travellers.

[kilted2000]

Here is what chat gpt said when I asked it:
Aye, I get where ye’re comin’ from! Based on yer wee passage, I’d guess ye’re someone who’s been thinkin’ a fair bit about the modern-day connection folks have—or *don’t* have—with their Scottish heritage, especially the whole clan business. There's a hint of curiosity, maybe even a bit o’ skepticism, about how much this ties into people’s lives in Scotland versus other parts of the world. Ye’re probably keen on exploring the cultural differences between Scottish diaspora communities and how they celebrate (or don’t) their heritage compared to folks still in Scotland.

### My Thoughts on the Passage:
- **Tone**: It comes across as thoughtful and observant, with a sense of respect but also a realistic view of how much clans and tartans matter in modern Scotland. There's a recognition that, for most Scots, clans are more a historical curiosity than an active part of their identity.
- **Assumptions**: Ye’ve got a clear understanding that clans in Scotland today aren’t a big deal for most folk. Ye acknowledge that the kilt, especially the tartan, is more commonly worn for special occasions rather than everyday life.
- **Curiosity**: The fact that yer askin’ about the differences between clan societies in the UK and abroad shows ye’ve noticed that the interest seems to be stronger in places like the US, Canada, and Australia. Ye’re wondering how the experience of these societies differs, especially in terms of things like kilt-wearing and other traditions.

### Differences Between Clan Societies in Scotland vs. Abroad
1. **Level of Engagement**:
- In Scotland, most people don't actively identify with a clan in daily life. The connection tends to be more historical or genealogical, often triggered by curiosity about family history.
- In places like the US, Canada, and Australia, there’s often a stronger romanticized connection to the idea of clans and tartan heritage. For many descendants, it's a way of preserving a sense of identity tied to their Scottish ancestry, especially given their distance from the "homeland."

2. **Events and Gatherings**:
- Clan societies in the UK may have fewer regular gatherings and are often more low-key. Events like the Highland Games or Burns Suppers are more of a national celebration than clan-specific ones.
- In the diaspora, clan societies are often more active, organizing frequent meetups, Highland Games, and ceilidhs to celebrate their Scottish roots. There’s often a sense of community among members, partly because it offers a way to connect with their heritage.

3. **Wearing Kilts and Tartan**:
- Ye’re spot on here—folks in Scotland are usually not walkin' around in kilts unless it’s a wedding, ceilidh, or other formal occasion. And aye, if they wear tartan, it’s often hired for the day.
- In the diaspora, people involved in clan societies may wear kilts more often, especially at events that celebrate Scottish culture. There's often more pride in wearing a clan-specific tartan, even if the person’s connection to that clan is fairly distant.

4. **Purpose of the Societies**:
- In Scotland, clan societies might focus more on historical research, preservation of heritage sites, and promoting cultural knowledge.
- Abroad, they’re often more about community-building and celebrating Scottish culture. For many, it’s a way of asserting an identity that might be several generations removed.

### Final Thoughts
Ye seem to be approaching this with an open mind, wanting to understand why these differences exist. Clan societies abroad often serve as a way for people to connect with their roots, while for most Scots, it's more of a cultural curiosity than a lived identity. The whole romanticized view of clans, tartans, and kilts is something that appeals more to those outside of Scotland as a way of maintaining a link to their ancestors.

Is that the kind of insight ye were hopin' for, or is there another angle ye’d like to explore?

[Jock Scot]

Here is what chat gpt said when I asked it:
Aye, I get where ye’re comin’ from! Based on yer wee passage, I’d guess ye’re someone who’s been thinkin’ a fair bit about the modern-day connection folks have—or *don’t* have—with their Scottish heritage, especially the whole clan business. There's a hint of curiosity, maybe even a bit o’ skepticism, about how much this ties into people’s lives in Scotland versus other parts of the world. Ye’re probably keen on exploring the cultural differences between Scottish diaspora communities and how they celebrate (or don’t) their heritage compared to folks still in Scotland.

### My Thoughts on the Passage:
- **Tone**: It comes across as thoughtful and observant, with a sense of respect but also a realistic view of how much clans and tartans matter in modern Scotland. There's a recognition that, for most Scots, clans are more a historical curiosity than an active part of their identity.
- **Assumptions**: Ye’ve got a clear understanding that clans in Scotland today aren’t a big deal for most folk. Ye acknowledge that the kilt, especially the tartan, is more commonly worn for special occasions rather than everyday life.
- **Curiosity**: The fact that yer askin’ about the differences between clan societies in the UK and abroad shows ye’ve noticed that the interest seems to be stronger in places like the US, Canada, and Australia. Ye’re wondering how the experience of these societies differs, especially in terms of things like kilt-wearing and other traditions.

### Differences Between Clan Societies in Scotland vs. Abroad
1. **Level of Engagement**:
- In Scotland, most people don't actively identify with a clan in daily life. The connection tends to be more historical or genealogical, often triggered by curiosity about family history.
- In places like the US, Canada, and Australia, there’s often a stronger romanticized connection to the idea of clans and tartan heritage. For many descendants, it's a way of preserving a sense of identity tied to their Scottish ancestry, especially given their distance from the "homeland."

2. **Events and Gatherings**:
- Clan societies in the UK may have fewer regular gatherings and are often more low-key. Events like the Highland Games or Burns Suppers are more of a national celebration than clan-specific ones.
- In the diaspora, clan societies are often more active, organizing frequent meetups, Highland Games, and ceilidhs to celebrate their Scottish roots. There’s often a sense of community among members, partly because it offers a way to connect with their heritage.

3. **Wearing Kilts and Tartan**:
- Ye’re spot on here—folks in Scotland are usually not walkin' around in kilts unless it’s a wedding, ceilidh, or other formal occasion. And aye, if they wear tartan, it’s often hired for the day.
- In the diaspora, people involved in clan societies may wear kilts more often, especially at events that celebrate Scottish culture. There's often more pride in wearing a clan-specific tartan, even if the person’s connection to that clan is fairly distant.

4. **Purpose of the Societies**:
- In Scotland, clan societies might focus more on historical research, preservation of heritage sites, and promoting cultural knowledge.
- Abroad, they’re often more about community-building and celebrating Scottish culture. For many, it’s a way of asserting an identity that might be several generations removed.

### Final Thoughts
Ye seem to be approaching this with an open mind, wanting to understand why these differences exist. Clan societies abroad often serve as a way for people to connect with their roots, while for most Scots, it's more of a cultural curiosity than a lived identity. The whole romanticized view of clans, tartans, and kilts is something that appeals more to those outside of Scotland as a way of maintaining a link to their ancestors.

Is that the kind of insight ye were hopin' for, or is there another angle ye’d like to explore?

Why is it that I am not surprised by the answers, above, to your question?

[JPS]

Here is what chat gpt said when I asked it:

I would not waste a single moment more trying to get information from ChatGPT.

[Jock Scot]

I would not waste a single moment more trying to get information from ChatGPT.

Well alright, can you explain to this techno dunce who has never come across ChatGPT before, just what is the problem with ChatGPT?

[FossilHunter]

Well alright, can you explain to this techno dunce who has never come across ChatGPT before, just what is the problem with ChatGPT?

Broadly speaking, the issue that can arise with any Artificial Intelligence software is that the results are only as accurate as the data they draw from. The AI is often unable to compensate for biases surrounding more subjective topics and those can be reflected in the results.

At least, that’s my understanding of the issue.