My (expanding Sporran Collection

[OC Richard]

All of them are silver mounted.

What a great acquisition! I'd love to see photos of these, showing the backs as well as the fronts.

Sterling Silver? These would almost certainly have full Silver hallmarks, possibly FN (Frederick Narborough) a Birmingham firm who supplied cantles to a number of Scottish sporran makers.

Two of them bear the makers name RW Forsyth Highland Wear Manufacturer's Glasgow, Edinburgh & London. Interestingly enough the Cantles are embossed with the same manufacturer but only saying Glasgow and Edinburgh.

That's interesting and might help date them. I have a c1930 Forsyth catalogue that has pictures of their three locations, their London location was Vigo House, Regent Street. I looked up that location and the building shown was built in 1925 suggesting that Forsyth might have been an original tenant.

So the sporrans were made after 1925.

BTW if the cantles are stamped with the maker, and don't have full Silver hallmarks, they're almost certainly German Silver, either plain or silver plated.

One has a functional silver 'Culloden cantle' and the other has a decorative cantle with a back opening pouch.

So by Culloden style you mean that the pins that hold the hinge together have knobs that go through slots in the leather?

I don't have one of those, what I do have is a later hinge style where the hinge is completely internal.

Here the top sporran has the visible knobs on the hinge Culloden style, and the bottom sporran has a nonfunctional cantle with pocket on the back.



Here's my sporran hallmarked 1967 with a hidden internal hinge.



Here are the sporran illustrations from my c1930 Forsyth catalogue.

[Tomo]

Some great sporrans.

This is the MOD Culloden sporran OCR is referring to. Mine is a later (MkII I think) and the blancoed bag is dated 1960. The badge doesn't seam to be original, looks to be a button that has been re-purposed. I picked it up for a song when I was working in Edinburgh a couple of years ago. I have plans to re-bag it.

[Allan Thomson]

"42" was the 42nd Battalion CEF

Yes that's the same. I had been aware of the WW1 connection from research but didn't consider mine was that old before. Not sure how the sporran ended up in our family, my Grandfather came home through Canada from Japan but I'm not aware of any stories about sporrans brought back. Plenty of Family that served in Scottish regiments including a fair few in the 42nd but not the Canadian regiment to my knowledge.

Alas mine lost a tassle ( hence why I said 4, there should be 5), I keep hoping I could find a skilled enough leather worker to mock one up, apart from that it's still going strong..

[Allan Thomson]

OC Richard regarding your question about 'Culloden Style' Cantle maybe a functional cantle might be a better term, I simply used 'Culloden Style' as it's the most common type of working Cantle about and a lot of Cantles about are mock examples. As far as I consider the term 'Culloden cantle' referred to the pattern used by the Black Watch which is so popular now, and was the style of my Father's Sporran at the time I inherited my first kilt, I was given the Canadian one with the leather flap, but always aspired to own one with a working cantle.

It is quite difficult to work out the history of working Cantles vs mock cantles as I used to have the impression it was a case of working ones being older than fakes and then fakes coming in more recently but obviously looking at the sporrans I have 'fake cantles' have a longer history than I first thought.

I did consider perhaps it was a case of Fakes being the cheaper option than the genuine working type. Certainly now it seems like getting a working cantle on a modern sporran is nigh in impossible except for Antique rebagged stock (goes at a premium), Inherited or 2nd hand items (rare and expensive unless you are lucky as in my case), or reproduction or commissioned one offs (again expensive).

In this case the pins and hinges are concealed not showing.

[ShaunMaxwell]

[QUOTE=did consider perhaps it was a case of Fakes being the cheaper option than the genuine working type. Certainly now it seems like getting a working cantle on a modern sporran is nigh in impossible except for Antique rebagged stock (goes at a premium), Inherited or 2nd hand items (rare and expensive unless you are lucky as in my case), or reproduction or commissioned one offs (again expensive).[/QUOTE]

There are some Pakistani sporrans being sold on eBay now with working hinged brass cantles that can be had for the price of an MOD Culloden cantle. I already have a couple, or I might be tempted …

https://ebay.us/m/QIQhxj

https://ebay.us/m/ao0TK7

I’m not crazy about the finish on the brass, but some might be interested.

Cheers,

SM

[OC Richard]

It is quite difficult to work out the history of working Cantles vs mock cantles as I used to have the impression it was a case of working ones being older than fakes and then fakes coming in more recently but obviously looking at the sporrans I have 'fake cantles' have a longer history than I first thought.

Yes the history is a bit convoluted.

At the start of the 18th century, when we get our first clear looks at sporrans, they're a simple leather poke with drawstring top and flap closure.

By the middle of the 18th century sporrans have acquired the metal hinged opening top. Paintings of the time show silver tops and sealskin bodies. There are several old-looking sporrans in museums with brass tops and deerskin bodies, however these cannot be dated with any certainty and don't unequivocally appear in period paintings AFAIK.

By around 1800 sporrans had evolved into quite different things: big square pouches of long goat-hair with either leather or matching hair flap openings. Soon the flaps acquired decorative plates, japanned leather with metal rim and oftentimes metal badges.

These, in turn, by around 1840 had evolved into our familiar long goathair (later horsehair) sporrans with leather or metal cantles which are still with us today especially in the military.

So hinged metal tops had died out by around 1800, but they were revived beginning AFAIK starting around 1880. These "revival" sporrans were loosely based on mid-18th century sporrans but were far more ornate and elaborate, covered with Celtic-knot tooling and studs, having numerous knobs and tassels, and the metal top often being richly engraved silver.

These revival sporrans appear to have declined in popularity especially around World War One after which Highland Dress became greatly simplified.

Hinged tops did continue to be offered throughout the interwar period but weren't nearly as popular as the ordinary nonfunctional cantle type, possibly due to expense. They were made both with exposed side knobs and with the hinge completely hidden.

Then in 1953 the mid-18th century hinged cantle was revived once more, becoming the general issue sporran for all ranks in all of the kilted Scottish Scottish regiments. The body was rough plain leather which the soldiers had to put that horrid Blanco on. These sporrans are often called "Culloden" sporrans (I'm guessing there's a hinged brass cantle leather sporran in a museum somewhere that was supposedly worn at that battle).

The last chapter is that these "Culloden" brass cantles are currently undergoing a big revival themselves. Those old 1953 sporrans used to be dirt cheap (when the regiments dropped them in the 1960s nobody wanted them) but now they're getting scarce and expensive, and as one might expect Pakistani makers are exploiting the shortage with inexpensive knockoffs.

I threw together this showing an original and the two major revivals

[OC Richard]

the term 'Culloden cantle' referred to the pattern used by the Black Watch

These?

About the Canadian military I don't know, but in the British army these were issued in 1953 as part of an entirely new "Coronation Dress" AKA "Number One Dress" for the 6 kilted regiments.

The new items were a dark blue Balmoral, Archer Green coatee, and "Culloden" sporran as you see here worn by the Black Watch of Scotland. (Both the bonnet and coatee are quite dark and are often mistaken for black.)

In the British army this dress was issued to The Black Watch, the Seaforth Highlanders, the Cameron Highlanders, the Gordon Highlanders, the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, and the Highland Light Infantry (who had acquired kilts just a few years prior).



This costume was, from the standpoint of uniform history, strange.

Combining a mid-18th century sporran and bonnet with a 19th century coatee made no sense, and it didn't last long. The Culloden sporrans were replaced by horsehair ones in 1968, and the coatees were replaced by Archer Green doublets in 1981.

[LRRobertson327]

Hello, I need help finding someone to repair my (Donnie Hailey create Sporran) , It seems storage location had mice. and they remove part of 1 tassle. I tried contacting Donnie at Wyvern Leatherworks, and he is unreachable. website no longer exist or changed. I tried attaching a photo, but it fails and doesn't say why. the other tassle is completely intact.
Thank you in advance for any guidance
Lester "Robbie" Robertson

[Canadian Vet]

Yes that's the same. I had been aware of the WW1 connection from research but didn't consider mine was that old before. Not sure how the sporran ended up in our family, my Grandfather came home through Canada from Japan but I'm not aware of any stories about sporrans brought back. Plenty of Family that served in Scottish regiments including a fair few in the 42nd but not the Canadian regiment to my knowledge.

Alas mine lost a tassle ( hence why I said 4, there should be 5), I keep hoping I could find a skilled enough leather worker to mock one up, apart from that it's still going strong..

At the start of the war, Canada's "named" Regiments had their names taken away from them and they were given Battalion numbers by a very controversial Canadian Minister of Militia named Sam Hughes. The Black Watch of Canada (with origins in 1862) became the 13th, 42, 73 Battalions of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. the 42nd Battalion was authorized September 14th 1914 and sailed to the UK and subsequently to battle in Belgium early 1915. (A Battalion of the Canadian Army had 1000 men during WWI). The 42nd was disbanded at the end of the war in 1918 and was not re-formed. Canadian regiments returned to their traditional names circa 1920. The Black Watch of Canada still exists (in Montreal) as a reserve infantry regiment in 34 Canadian Brigade Group, 2nd Canadian Division.

Your Sporran was WWI issue only and only Canadian.

[Allan Thomson]

At the start of the war, Canada's "named" Regiments had their names taken away from them and they were given Battalion numbers by a very controversial Canadian Minister of Militia named Sam Hughes. The Black Watch of Canada (with origins in 1862) became the 13th, 42, 73 Battalions of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. the 42nd Battalion was authorized September 14th 1914 and sailed to the UK and subsequently to battle in Belgium early 1915. (A Battalion of the Canadian Army had 1000 men during WWI). The 42nd was disbanded at the end of the war in 1918 and was not re-formed. Canadian regiments returned to their traditional names circa 1920. The Black Watch of Canada still exists (in Montreal) as a reserve infantry regiment in 34 Canadian Brigade Group, 2nd Canadian Division.

Your Sporran was WWI issue only and only Canadian.

Thankyou that's good to get a definitive answer. I asked my Dad what was the story behind how he got it, he said he found it in a thrift shop here in the Isle of Man.. sadly there's no numbers on it so no clue as to who owned it to give a guide as to how it ended up over here...