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15th June 25, 04:18 PM
#11
Prince Charles Edward Stuart and some of its Wilsons relatives, showing the Wilsons' endless tinkering with their designs.
For this comparison I've lined up the red band bordered by green stipes, which also aligns the red band bordered by Azure stripes.
This goes against my impulse to follow the "Stewart motif" (for lack of a better term) which on the righthand two tartans occurs with the red band bordered by green stripes, but has been shifted over to the red band bordered by the blue stripes on the lefthand tartan.
In #43/Kidd/Caldonia/MacPherson it's been disappeared from the red band bordered by the green stripes, and is inchoate in the red band bordered by the Azure stripes.
Last edited by OC Richard; 15th June 25 at 04:20 PM.
Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte
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16th June 25, 02:30 AM
#12
 Originally Posted by OC Richard
Prince Charles Edward Stuart and some of its Wilsons relatives, showing the Wilsons' endless tinkering with their designs.
Richard,
Some other popular Wilsons' designs that clearly show PCES influence.
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16th June 25, 11:23 PM
#13
 Originally Posted by OC Richard
I don't know about discussions which might have been had, but the Wilsons certainly did a large amount of tinkering with their designs.
Witness all the various proportions seen in the Prince Charles Edward Stuart tartan above. These weren't accidents but deliberate design choices.
And look at all the various colours employed, also deliberate design choices.
We can't ask Van Gogh about why he chose this or that colour, or this or that brush-stroke, or this or that composition. We have to study his paintings if we want to come to some kind of understanding as to why he made the choices he did.
Ditto the Wilsons. If we could travel back to the 2nd half of the 18th century we could ask them why they chose the proportions, colours, and sett-sizes they did. But like with Van Gogh's paintings, Wilsons tartans can tell us all these things if we look carefully enough.
Now why am I spending time (not much, in truth) reconstructing some of Wilsons patterns?
One of the painting classes I had in University had us do one painting copying Van Gogh's style, another Monet's, another Munch's, etc. (Not copying one of their paintings, but rather doing an original painting in their style.)
The instructor felt we would learn more about an artist's style by actually trying to paint in that style than by any amount of talking. He was right.
We experience art by looking at it and creating it, not by talking about it.
Thus what I should be doing is weaving these old patterns, rather than being lazy and quick and doing CGI. Indeed I can learn nothing about Wilsons weaving unless I weave.
That's what Peter has done, the craft of the weaver, and he has gained tremendous insights from it.
I'm merely approaching old tartans as graphic designs. In doing so I'm doing them a disservice.
Oh of course the tartan designer had/has a huge input into the production of a tartan and of course the tartan weaver had/has a large commercial interest in the product too. But....
I am asking what the general interest is in the tartan design in respect of the sett and colours. I am wondering about how much of the tartan design theory..........actually matters to the general kilt wearing public? The customer. As an example , I am aware that there are people wearing their Clan tartan and absolutely loath the colours ,the sett, or both that is commercially available to them. Of course there are others who like the design of the tartan they are wearing.
I quite understand that the artistic content, the colours and the sett, of a tartan is the brain child of the designer, I also understand the commercial aspect from the weavers point of view and of course the Clansman who might hopefully purchase “his” tartan. But how many potential customers are actually genuinely interested in the theory of the design process in regard to the sett design and the colours chosen on a day to day basis? Who knows? Not that many I suggest.
Last edited by Jock Scot; 16th June 25 at 11:57 PM.
" Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.
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16th June 25, 11:58 PM
#14
 Originally Posted by Jock Scot
But how many potential customers are actually genuinely interested in the theory of the design process in regard to the sett design and the colours chosen on a day to day basis? Who knows? Not that many I suggest.
I have no doubt that you are right Jock. Whilst this is definitely of interest to some of us, more people simply do not have that level of interest, nor is there any reason why they should. That said, in discussing such 'technicalities' it is an opportunity to broaden interest and more importantly, dispell some of the more egregious myths that surround both tartan and Highland Dress.
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25th September 25, 03:44 PM
#15
 Originally Posted by Jock Scot
I am wondering about how much of the tartan design theory actually matters to the general kilt wearing public? The customer.
Very few are interested in design theory. What impacts the potential customer are the things the design theory made happen.
When people go out to buy a new couch, or rug, or curtains all they know is that they respond to certain colours and patterns.
They don't know about the millions of dollars these industries have spent on market research, the millions of dollars these industries have paid designers to make things which follow projected market trends. (There are market research firms who will, for a fee, reveal to you what they project to be the most popular colour for the upcoming year. Millions of dollars are riding on them being right.)
Yes individual kilt-wearers often buy their clan tartan regardless. Where we see this stuff is in the Kilt Hire Industry where for a time everybody wanted to hire grey kilts so several firms came out with lines of grey tartans. Then for a time everybody wanted to hire purple kilts and loads of new purple tartans were invented expressly for hire.
I'm not investigating tartan design for these purposes. It's just an exercise in two-dimensional design for me. The interests of the general public don't cross my mind.
In any case, Peter posted a photo of an 1820s-looking tartan jacket and I've just worked out those proportions, which once again are different from any of the others I looked at.
These might be the most pleasing proportions of the lot.
Last edited by OC Richard; 25th September 25 at 04:28 PM.
Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte
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30th September 25, 02:39 AM
#16
Sorry my fault, duel post. Now deleted. J.S..
Last edited by Jock Scot; 30th September 25 at 02:44 AM.
" Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.
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30th September 25, 02:42 AM
#17
I have to be honest here, to my uneducated artistic eye, I really don't find those tartans that you show above, one bit pleasing. Far, far too busy for me.
" Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.
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1st October 25, 12:44 AM
#18
 Originally Posted by Jock Scot
I really don't find those tartans that you show above one bit pleasing. Far, far too busy for me.
Yet, they're all the same tartan as the world's most popular tartan, Royal Stewart, except with a narrower red band. Royal Stewart's wide swath of red gives the eye a resting-place true enough.
But to me Royal Stewart is spread too thin. There's a happy place where a tartan design is closely-knit enough to have visual strength, yet not congested.
A candidate for the epitome of congested overly-busy tartans has got to be Drummond of Strathallan.
My old Pipe Major called tartans like this "test pattern tartans" (for those old enough to remember test patterns).

Most successful fall somewhere in the middle between dense complexity and simpleminded naivete.
Last edited by OC Richard; 1st October 25 at 03:38 AM.
Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte
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5th October 25, 07:08 AM
#19
on refection...
Still a very cool exercise though, and a good answer.
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 Originally Posted by OC Richard
A candidate for the epitome of congested overly-busy tartans has got to be Drummond of Strathallan.
And that tartan has its basis in the one designed for the Royal Company of Archers' original uniform.
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