The Ulster tartans, and Irish surnames

[Alan H]

For those of you interested in names/ancestors that show up in Ireland, check out these links...

http://www.thauvin.net/chance/ireland/

...which link you to a number of good resources..

http://minerva.ucc.ie:6336/dynaweb/a...xtView/5;pt=91

Which is an online symopsis of quite a thorough reserach project, and a VERY handy one, for quick information on a particular name going back to 1659. For myself, personally it's interesting to note that th e1659 atlas records O'Naughtan and Naughtons but not O'Knights or Knights. I could go on about that, but I'll let you look into your own names of interest, instead.

This one is handy...

http://scripts.ireland.com/ancestor/index.cfm

Do the surname search over on the left, and you'll get a nifty map that shows the distribution of that name, plus a numbers of related names in Ireland in the 1860 census.

ANY-way, I've discovered that my McKnight ancestor emigrated from Ulster to Pennsylvania in 1733. That makes him one of the "Ulster Scots", eh? The 1733 date puts this guy coming to America a few decades before the formalization of tartan-clan was starting to get going. However, I understand that the "Ulster Red" tartan is rather older than this.

So my question is...what's the relationship between the Ulster Scots and the Ulster (particularly the red) tartans? How far back do the Ulster tartans go? Whowore them?

Many thanks!

Alan

[Alan H]

As an aside, I understand that the Saffron Kilt in Northern Ireland has a bit more of a "meaning" than it does in other parts of Ireland.

I believe that this might spring from some stuff I've learned recently....namely, that when the English forbade the wearingof the color "saffron" in *****. there was resistance to that edict, mostly centered in the northern parts of Ireland. Now "saffron" may or may not actually be "saffron" as in the color imparted by the pollen of the crocus plant (seems to me that it's probably NOT), and the actual color that it imparts to linen vs.wool is different. So much of the specifics of all this may be up for discussion. However, as decades and centuries pass, the color "saffron" has come to represent the idea of Irish independence, so that the wearing of a saffron kilt in Northern Ireland is a pretty strong political statement supporting Northern Irelands' independance from England...In other words, at least to some degree, in support of Sinn Fein and the IRA.

Have I got that right? Comments and elucidation are gladly welcomed!

Alan

[Mr. Kilt]

Excellent links, Alan! Thanks for posting them. Now I have more stuff to sort through on my quest to find some history on our family name.

[macwilkin]

I'll try to be brief, Alan, since I'm at work! :mrgreen:

The Ulster-Scots (Scots-Irish) were generally Lowland Scots (with some English, Welsh, French Huguenot and German Palatine thrown in) and usually did not wear the trappings of Highland garb. The Ulster Tartan that was found in Nothern Ireland was actually found in the form of trews, or trousers, and not a kilt.

It's only been a recent trend for those of Ulster-Scots and Lowland Scottish heritage to wear the kilt & tartan, since they have become a Scottish national dress. There are two Ulster tartans; a "weathered" tartan that simulates the weathering of the material whilst it was buried, and the red tartan, which attempts to simulate what the original colours may have looked like. There are the county tartans for all nine counties that made up historic Ulster (six in Northern Ireland, three in the Republic today), but all of these were designed in the 1990's as "trade" tartans.

This article from the Ulster-Scots agency explains the history of the Ulster tartan better than I can!

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/tartanandkilts.asp

The saffron kilt has actually been wore more by pipers in the Irish regiments of the British Army, such as the Royal Irish Rangers, Royal Irish Rifles, etc. The Irish Air Force's Pipe Band also wears saffron kilts, and there are several Irish pipe bands in the US, Canada and South Africa that wear it as well.

I'm sure Matt & Jimmy will have a lot more details to add to this thread! :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Todd

[bubba]

All this has me curious. Is there a tartan for Kilkenny or that can be associated with the Butlers of Kilkenny?

[macwilkin]

Bubba,

There is a tartan for Kilkenny:

www.district-tartans.com/kilkenny.htm

And, the Clan Doyle web site does show a Butler tartan:

http://www.doyle.com.au/tartans/butler.jpg

Cheers,

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

See what Todd said. :-)

Specifically, what is the relationship with the Ulster Scots and the Ulster tartan -- well, what is the relationship between any tartan and any people?

Did the Ulster Scot people, in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, while they were there, go about dressed in this tartan? No.

But did members of the Clan MacDonald in the any pre-modern time period go about dressed in the MacDonald tartan? Again, no.

A perception exists (and I'm not saying that you have this perception, just that some do) that our Scottish asncestors at one point wore the tartans which bear their names as a part of their daily garb in "times of old."

No. While people did wear tartan, they selected it pretty much the same way we select our clothing styles today. They selected colors and patterns that they liked and could afford. Period.

Tartans today are representative. That is, they represent, in some way, whatever it is whose name they bear. So the MacDonald tartan represents the Clan MacDonald. The Bruce tartan represents that family. Even though no one in those families may have worn those particular tartans prior to say, 1800, they still are meant to represent those clans.

The same is true of district tartans. They are meant to represent the places whose names they bear. So the Ulster tartan represents the geographic locale of Ulster. Anyone who wants to identify with that place can wear it. That would include, of course, those who currently live there, as well as those whose anscetors came from that place. But maybe you just really like Ulster, it's scenery, its people, its history, and want to wear the tartan. Go for it.

The Ulster tartan is an old tartan. It dates approximately to the year 1600, plus or minus. But its use as an Ulster district tartan is recent.

In 1956 a farmer in Dungiven found an outfit buried on his land. The clothes (trews and a jacket) were made from tartan (at least the trews were, I can't recall if the jacket was). Textile experts have suggested the cloth was actually woven in Scotland, by the way, but regardless the outfit wound up being buried in northern Ireland. The tartan was stained a brownish-yellow color, but it is thought the original colors were red, green and yellow. (This is why you see two versions of the Ulster tartan for sale today).

In 1958 a reconstruction of the outfit was displayed at the Ulster Museum. In the 1970s the tartan was recorded by the Scottish Tartans Society, and they called it the "Ulster tartan" (both color versions). Though it has never been officially approved as the Ulster tartan (to my knowledge), it is widely used and accepted as such today.

So, long story made short -- if you as a modern person descended from Ulster Scot stock, want to wear this tartan to represent your Ulster anscestors, it would be very appropriate to do so. But your anscestors in Ulster in 1733 would not have worn it, or even known what "the Ulster tartan" was.

Aye,
Matt

[Rufus]

Alan,

Thanks for those links! I learned more in 5 minutes on one of those links than I did after spending almost a month of doing genealogy research. I also learned another Irish variation of my last name that hadn't ever come up before. May give me some new leads on future research.

Todd and Matt,

Thanks for all the information about the different Ulster tartans. It's great to see the information laid out so nicely for us perezoso guys that won't look it up on our own.

[David in Maryland]

Thanks for the links. My maternal grandfather is a MacLeod, one of the larger clans, and quite organized in gathering clan information. Needless to say, I know quite abit about that side, including the beginnings, and is what I consider myself to be. Also, thankfully, my direct Macleod ancestors kept good records of their movement and I have a good family tree back to the ancestor who left Scotland in the very early 1800's. My maternal great grandmother was a Burke from Ireland. We do not have much information on them nor the Burke beginnings. Through those links I found that the Burkes were Anglo-Normans who settled predominantly in Connacht around 1171. Infact Burke county in my home state of NC is named after Thomas Burke, a descendant of Irish emigrants, who held large estates in North Carolina, and was deeply involved in the American War of Independence.

Now I guess I need to buy a district kilt for the counties in Connacht. I believe it includes Roscommon, Mayo, and Cork.

[macwilkin]

Cork is actually part of Munster. Connaught is composed of:

Roscommon
Mayo
Sligo
Leitrim
Galway

The Mayo and Roscommon tartans are really nice, but the Connaught leaves something to be desired, in my humble opinion.

Cheers,

Todd