Why do you wear the kilt.

[highlander_Daz]

Im never afronted by anyone, I think we have a different defination of a "scot", as an example there is an article in the daily record about Rod stuart, Hes was born in London to scottish parents but they paper was classing him as English, which I think is a bit unfair as he really is a good flag waver for Scotland and owns property here, but to some people hes seen as English but he sees himself as being a Scot which I agree with him its only an "accident of birth" that makes people call him English. The duke of wellington was born in Ireland and he used to say "being born in a barn doesnt make me a horse" he obviously wanted to be english and thats cool. its different for people in the US as most peoples family has roots elsewhere so its a real melting pot or cultures, but I agree that, even if your family has lived in the states for a couple of generations it doesnt cancel out the thousands of years of heritage gained elsewhere.So I want being disrespectful simply illustrating the differnces in perception and definations

[M. A. C. Newsome]

After Culloden, tartan was outlawed. So, what kilts did Scots wear then?

It wasn't just tartan that was outlawed -- it was Highland Dress in general. So, technically, that means no kilts.

So what did the Highlanders wear? Well, a lot wore pants. But some continued to wear the kilt, albeit illegally.

Aye,
Matt

[macwilkin]

It wasn't just tartan that was outlawed -- it was Highland Dress in general. So, technically, that means no kilts.

So what did the Highlanders wear? Well, a lot wore pants. But some continued to wear the kilt, albeit illegally.

And as soldiers in the Highland Regiments of the British Army. The Army was the only place that Scots could wear kilt & tartan, and bear arms legally.

Cheers,

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Thanks, Todd! Forgot to mention that one. That is perhaps the number one reason that a lot of formal Scottish dress today has such a military flare.
Aye,
Matt

[KiltedBishop]

In fact weren't some of those allowed to wear highland dress used against their own countrymen?

[macwilkin]

There were some Government Highlanders at Culloden, such as the Argyll Militia. The Black Watch were stationed in England, if I remember correctly, to guard against a possible French invasion.

Remember that the Highland Watch, the Independent Companies of Highland Soldiers which became the Black Watch, were raised to patrol the Highlands & maintain law & order -- much as the Northwest Mounted Police did for Western Canada.

Cheers,

Todd

[Geoduck]

Remember that the Highland Watch, the Independent Companies of Highland Soldiers which became the Black Watch, were raised to patrol the Highlands & maintain law & order -- much as the Northwest Mounted Police did for Western Canada.

Cheers,

Todd

I've never thought of the Blackwatch as Mounties, Todd. Interesting thoughts next time I visit the Gold Rush Museum in Pioneer Square.

[macwilkin]

I've never thought of the Blackwatch as Mounties, Todd. Interesting thoughts next time I visit the Gold Rush Museum in Pioneer Square.

The early history of both organizations are similar; the old Northwest Mounted Police was originally a para-military police force based on the Royal Irish Constabulary, and the red coat was chosen specifically to remind the First Nations of Western Canada of the red coats of British soldiers. The NWMP fought in several campaigns against the Metis under Louis Riel, and then later volunteered with Canadian Mounted contingents in the Boer War & WWI (Lord Strathcona's Horse, the Alberta Dragoons, etc.) A contingent of the NWMP/RCMP served in Russia during the Allied intervention in 1919, and then as military policemen in the UK during WWII. Today they do peackeeping duties with the UN.

I'm getting ready to do a talk about Scots in the North American West for the Ft. Smith, Arkansas Scottish Club, and this thread has inspired me to bring up the "Mountie-Black Watch" similarities! :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Todd

[Thistle Stop]

Bubba,

Do you recall how old, or to what date was attributed to those artifacts? I have a vague memory of reading about it, but I can't recall the details.

As I recall the mummies were something like 3500 years old.

Here's a bit of info:

News article about ancient tartans (Source: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs...09/tartan.html):

Tartan's Checkered Past Investigated
By Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Tartan Found in China

Feb. 11, 2004 — Austria's growing movement to lay claim to the invention of tartan holds more weight than a hefty kilt, according to a recent Discovery News investigation that determined tartan likely did originate in the land of Lederhosen, instead of in Scotland.

For the past thirty years, archaeologists have unearthed evidence of ancient tartan in Austria. The country's recent interest in the checkered design, however, is due to one particular find, a remnant of an early Celtic kilt, and some clever public relations by Thomas Rettl, a clothing manufacturer whose business is located near the ancient kilt site.

"It was found not in Scotland but in a place called Molzbichl in Carinthia in Austria," Rettl told the European news service Ananova. "The tartan sample found in Austria was dated to at least 320 years B.C. — over 1,600 years earlier than the oldest Scottish tartan, which was made in 1300 A.D.

Brian Wilton, administrator of the Scottish Tartans Authority, was not certain about the 320 B.C. sample, but he said even earlier dates have been attributed to Austrian tartan.

"I'm not sure what particular piece of tartan Thomas is referring to, but some of the first pieces were found in the old salt mines of Halstatt near Salzburg, and those were dated between 1200 and 400 B.C.," Wilton said.

Elizabeth Barber, professor of linguistics and archaeology at Occidental College, and an expert on early textiles, agreed with Wilton. She said the 320 B.C. tartan is "probably legit."

Barber, however, added that tartan remains found in China "are hundreds of years older."

These tartans, described in Barber's book The Mummies of Urumchi, were found on the mummies of fair-haired, Caucasian travelers who perished in the Talkamakan Desert in Xinjiang, western China. Here the tartan pattern, which consists of stripes of various widths and colors positioned at right angles against a solid color background, was woven into wool garments.

"There is absolutely no way to know for sure why they wore tartans, since they left no written records," Barber told Discovery News. "I have a theory that they were invented for camouflage in hunting, but there is no way to prove that."

The tartan-wearing travelers to Asia probably were Celts who may have come from Central Europe, according to Wilton and Barber, so the finds in China could further support Austria's claim to the fabric design.

"Tartan is an ancient Celtic art form and the Celts roamed throughout Europe and further afield," Wilton explained.

Scotland's often harsh climate may be one reason why archaeologists have yet to find many ancient tartan remains there.

"Now and again samples are discovered that have had the fortune to have been in a very good preserving medium — salt is one, sand is another," Wilton said. "In the climatic conditions of northern Europe, early fabrics just do not survive — apart from the odd one here and there found in a peat bog."

Scotland can lay claim to the use of tartan for clan allegiance and identification, according to Barber. She said tartan's clan symbolism is a relatively recent invention that originated in Scotland in the 1700s.

[Thistle Stop]

Im never afronted by anyone, I think we have a different defination of a "scot", as an example there is an article in the daily record about Rod stuart, Hes was born in London to scottish parents but they paper was classing him as English, which I think is a bit unfair as he really is a good flag waver for Scotland and owns property here, but to some people hes seen as English but he sees himself as being a Scot which I agree with him its only an "accident of birth" that makes people call him English. The duke of wellington was born in Ireland and he used to say "being born in a barn doesnt make me a horse" he obviously wanted to be english and thats cool. its different for people in the US as most peoples family has roots elsewhere so its a real melting pot or cultures, but I agree that, even if your family has lived in the states for a couple of generations it doesnt cancel out the thousands of years of heritage gained elsewhere.So I want being disrespectful simply illustrating the differnces in perception and definations

I didn't think you were being disrespectful, so no worries about that! Americans, being so isolated from the rest of the world, have some cultural characteristics that seem odd to other people, and this particular issue of vernacular speech seemed to need explaining!