Hockey's Back!!!

[bear]

I have family in Winnipeg, always hoping that (for example) the Penguins will move to Winnipeg. I feel for you. But I also fear that you are drinking the same water that Canucks fans are drinking. I can see no other explanation. Unless maybe it's because people so rarely see a good hit these days that they can't appreciate one when they see it. Good hits can be devastating, and Naslund now knows that. Bertuzzi? He snapped. Good player. Terrible terrible thing he did. There is no place for that in hockey. None at all. Not even close. Gutless. Cowardly. To favourably compare what Bertuzzi did with what Steve Moore did, is in my opinion quite outrageous and unsupported by any reasonable view of the two incidents.

Kevin

The Moore hit on Naslund was all elbow. With the hard plastic weapons players wear on their elbows these days, Moore could have killed Naslund. Naslund was blind sided, stretched out, and defenseless when Moore elbowed him. Naslund was also the league scoring leader. There was no call. The league did nothing to protect it's top scorer.
Richard. Howe. Hull. Beliveau. Orr. Gretzky. Take a shot like Moore's at any one of those players and you would have been in the hospital, either by the player or a goon. Only the opinions of the fans have changed. On the ice, it's still hands off the stars.
I blame the rest of the Canucks more than Bertuzzi. When Bertuzzi went over the boards to help Jovo in the heat of the battle, he was suspended. One of the Canuck tough guys should have dealt with Moore.
But Moore, cowardly, kept turning his back on Bertuzzi.
When Rocket Richard was suspended for the playoffs, there was a riot in Montreal. In Vancouver there were calls for jail time for Bertuzzi, mostly by non hockey fans.
I have a #44 hanging in my shop window as a sign of support for a guy who got reamed by the league for doing what has always been considered an act of team spirit. He stood up for a teammate, a friend, and his team.
Hockey is a brutal sport at the pro level. There have been goons in the league like Samuelson, who have intentionally kneed several players onto retirement. Others have cross checked players in the face long after the whistle had blown. Many of these acts were done to injure stars heading into the playoffs or Olympics. It's not widely spoken of but it is a reality of hockey. Intentional injury to stars is a problem that hasn't been dealt with since the instigator rule prevented goons from protecting stars.
What would happen to Philly if Crosby was gooned half way through this year and his career ended? The franchise would fold!
The league bears a lot of the responsibility for not dealing with the problem of star protection, for leaving it in the hands of young men in their prime playing a frustrating, violent game full of anger.

[KMacT]

The Moore hit on Naslund was all elbow. With the hard plastic weapons players wear on their elbows these days, Moore could have killed Naslund. Naslund was blind sided, stretched out, and defenseless when Moore elbowed him. Naslund was also the league scoring leader. There was no call. The league did nothing to protect it's top scorer.
Richard. Howe. Hull. Beliveau. Orr. Gretzky. Take a shot like Moore's at any one of those players and you would have been in the hospital, either by the player or a goon. Only the opinions of the fans have changed. On the ice, it's still hands off the stars.

Before I say anything, I want to express agreement with your characterization of todays elbow guards. They are brutal to be on the receiving end of. Gordie Howe delivered plenty of elbows in his day, but never with one of those on his elbow.

First, in the era of Richard, Howe, Hull, Beliveau and even Orr there were no "goons." There wewre dirty players, sure, but that's not what makes a goon. Anyone who fought back then (and almost everyone did) could also play the game. There was no room on the roster for the goon that we have today. The Donald Brashears and Tony Twists of the NHL can't play the game - they just go on the ice for a few shifts so they can get in a fight with the other team's goon. Nothing to do with hockey. To think that was the way it used to be is just ignorance of the way it was.

Second, Bobby Orr was destroyed in 1969 by a check from Pat Quinn. Completely blindsided Orr. Orr's response? It was a legal hit - I had my head down. It was understood that a player with the puck should be aware of the opposing players around him and protect himself - not least of which by keeping his head up. From the legendsofhockey.net, "Although the Leafs said it was a clean hit, many in Boston wanted Quinn suspended for it and, to this day, die-hard Bruins fans contend that it was the Quinn elbow that contributed to Orr's decline and ultimate retirement." By the way, what was Naslund's response to the Moore hit? He said it was a legal hit.

Gretzky was one of the first superstars that never defended himself. People credit Dave Semenko with that, but I don't believe that little bit of popular wisdom is well founded. That may be a discussion for another day, however.

I blame the rest of the Canucks more than Bertuzzi. When Bertuzzi went over the boards to help Jovo in the heat of the battle, he was suspended. One of the Canuck tough guys should have dealt with Moore.

And how would the tough guy deal with Moore? Challenge him to a fight? There are not many players, if any, that are afraid of a fight. People rarely get hurt in a fight.

But Moore, cowardly, kept turning his back on Bertuzzi.

Are you saying that if Moore had decided to fight Bertuzzi, then everything would have been fine and nothing would have happened after that? Are you *actually* saying this?

...a guy who got reamed by the league for doing what has always been considered an act of team spirit. He stood up for a teammate, a friend, and his team.

Can you find any players that have said that what Bertuzzi did has always been considered an act of team spirit and part of the game of hockey? Has anyone said that given the same circumstances they'd do the same thing? This isn't team spirit. This isn't part of the game. And let's not forget that this was not the first game between these two teams since the Moore hit on Naslund. Why didn't all this happen in then previous meeting? Because it was a close game. But when the Canucks were losing 8-2 late in the third period, all of a sudden Bertuzzi became a knight in shining armor riding to the defence of Naslund? Me, I don't buy that.

Hockey is a brutal sport at the pro level. There have been goons in the league like Samuelson, who have intentionally kneed several players onto retirement.

Samuelson was dirty, but he wasn't a goon. He could play the game. And he should have received long suspensions for his dirty play and been ushered from the game a long time ago. Dirty play cannot be tolerated.

Others have cross checked players in the face long after the whistle had blown. Many of these acts were done to injure stars heading into the playoffs or Olympics. It's not widely spoken of but it is a reality of hockey.

You talk like these are secrets? Not widely spoken about? Seriously? The cross-check that I suspect you are refering to resulted in a lengthy suspension and was *universally* condemned. It wasn't part of the game. Before today I've not heard of anyone that thinks such an act is part of the game of hockey. Just because something happens on the ice doesn't make it "part of the game."

Intentional injury to stars is a problem that hasn't been dealt with since the instigator rule prevented goons from protecting stars.

More popular "wisdom." Sure, most people believe this. It just doesn't hold any water. Goons have never protected stars because no one is afraid of fighting a goon. People just don't get hurt in a hockey fight. It's not like a street fight. If people are afraid of anyone it is the Samuelson type of dirty player. And how would a goon protect a player from getting kneed by Samuelson? Challenge him to a fight so they can both sit in the penalty box for five minutes? And let's face it, Samuelson is gonna get a lot more playing time than any goon would. In fact, Samuelson's coach would have love a goon to be on the ice as much as possible. Goons are just not very good players.

What would happen to Philly if Crosby was gooned half way through this year and his career ended? The franchise would fold!

You say "gooned." What do goons do? They challenge people to fights. If being challenged to a fight stopped a star from developing into a superstar, then Richard, Howe, Hull, Beliveau and Orr would never have developed. I suspect Bobby Orr was in more fights his first year in the league than Bertuzzi has been his entire career. Fights don't scare anyone.

It's the dirty play that needs to be addressed. The stick incidents in particular. That's the danger to the stars and everyone else. I just don't see how having some guy on your team that plays 2-3 minutes a game is gonna "protect" Cam Neely from Ulf Samuelson. And in fact, it didn't. Not that Cam wasn't perfectly able to protect himself (he didn't need any goon to protect him). But his career was still cut short in its prime because of a dirty check.

Kevin

[bear]

Before I say anything, I want to express agreement with your characterization of todays elbow guards. They are brutal to be on the receiving end of. Gordie Howe delivered plenty of elbows in his day, but never with one of those on his elbow.

First, in the era of Richard, Howe, Hull, Beliveau and even Orr there were no "goons." There wewre dirty players, sure, but that's not what makes a goon. Anyone who fought back then (and almost everyone did) could also play the game. There was no room on the roster for the goon that we have today. The Donald Brashears and Tony Twists of the NHL can't play the game - they just go on the ice for a few shifts so they can get in a fight with the other team's goon. Nothing to do with hockey. To think that was the way it used to be is just ignorance of the way it was.

There have always been goons that were on the roster for their fighting talent more than their hockey talent. Beliveau was protected by Ferguson, the most feared man in the league.

Second, Bobby Orr was destroyed in 1969 by a check from Pat Quinn. Completely blindsided Orr. Orr's response? It was a legal hit - I had my head down. It was understood that a player with the puck should be aware of the opposing players around him and protect himself - not least of which by keeping his head up. From the legendsofhockey.net, "Although the Leafs said it was a clean hit, many in Boston wanted Quinn suspended for it and, to this day, die-hard Bruins fans contend that it was the Quinn elbow that contributed to Orr's decline and ultimate retirement." By the way, what was Naslund's response to the Moore hit? He said it was a legal hit.

It is a reality in today's game that players can get suspended or fined for what they say. Call a bad hit a bad hit and you get a fine. Criticise a ref and you're fined.
Didn't Quinn get jumped by the whole Boston team?
Anyone who saw the hit could see it was an elbow on a vulnerable superstar. I don't know why Naslund didn't call it a bad hit.

Gretzky was one of the first superstars that never defended himself. People credit Dave Semenko with that, but I don't believe that little bit of popular wisdom is well founded. That may be a discussion for another day, however.

Calling truth popular wisdom is hardly a defense for a position, but, as you say, let's leave it for another day.

And how would the tough guy deal with Moore? Challenge him to a fight? There are not many players, if any, that are afraid of a fight. People rarely get hurt in a fight.

All players are afraid of a fight, even the goons. And every fight has injuries, either to the hands or the face. The abs are also injured, due to the jockeying for a good punch while clinching.

Are you saying that if Moore had decided to fight Bertuzzi, then everything would have been fine and nothing would have happened after that? Are you *actually* saying this?

You can't blind-side a man who is facing you.

Can you find any players that have said that what Bertuzzi did has always been considered an act of team spirit and part of the game of hockey? Has anyone said that given the same circumstances they'd do the same thing? This isn't team spirit. This isn't part of the game. And let's not forget that this was not the first game between these two teams since the Moore hit on Naslund. Why didn't all this happen in then previous meeting? Because it was a close game. But when the Canucks were losing 8-2 late in the third period, all of a sudden Bertuzzi became a knight in shining armor riding to the defence of Naslund? Me, I don't buy that.

Gordie Howe would often wait several games to exact his revenge for a cheap shot, often putting the guy out of the game. As I said before, it is the fan's opinions that have changed, not the unwritten rules of the game.

Samuelson was dirty, but he wasn't a goon. He could play the game. And he should have received long suspensions for his dirty play and been ushered from the game a long time ago. Dirty play cannot be tolerated.
You talk like these are secrets? Not widely spoken about? Seriously? The cross-check that I suspect you are refering to resulted in a lengthy suspension and was *universally* condemned. It wasn't part of the game. Before today I've not heard of anyone that thinks such an act is part of the game of hockey. Just because something happens on the ice doesn't make it "part of the game."

Was that player charged with a crime? Surely his offence was greater than a gloved punch to the face?

More popular "wisdom." Sure, most people believe this. It just doesn't hold any water. Goons have never protected stars because no one is afraid of fighting a goon. People just don't get hurt in a hockey fight. It's not like a street fight. If people are afraid of anyone it is the Samuelson type of dirty player. And how would a goon protect a player from getting kneed by Samuelson? Challenge him to a fight so they can both sit in the penalty box for five minutes? And let's face it, Samuelson is gonna get a lot more playing time than any goon would. In fact, Samuelson's coach would have love a goon to be on the ice as much as possible. Goons are just not very good players.

You should read the Tiger Williams book, where he describes how one of the Flyers was kicking him through his helmet, trying to kill him in a fight. I've seen plenty of concussions in hockey fights, too. Jovo put a guy out for several games wiith one punch.

You say "gooned." What do goons do? They challenge people to fights. If being challenged to a fight stopped a star from developing into a superstar, then Richard, Howe, Hull, Beliveau and Orr would never have developed. I suspect Bobby Orr was in more fights his first year in the league than Bertuzzi has been his entire career. Fights don't scare anyone.

Richard, Howe, and Hull could all fight with the best. Beliveau and Orr weren't in their league but were OK scrappers. They always got help.

It's the dirty play that needs to be addressed. The stick incidents in particular. That's the danger to the stars and everyone else. I just don't see how having some guy on your team that plays 2-3 minutes a game is gonna "protect" Cam Neely from Ulf Samuelson. And in fact, it didn't. Not that Cam wasn't perfectly able to protect himself (he didn't need any goon to protect him). But his career was still cut short in its prime because of a dirty check.
Kevin

I agree the dirty play needs to be addressed. Pads need to be defensive, not offensive. Superstars need protection more than grunts because they are who the fans come to see.
If the league will not protect superstars, the players will have to protect each other.
Will we soon see players suing each other for dirty plays on the ice? That's what Moore is doing. Will it lead to suits for high sticks? Elbows?
Moore was a cheap shot artist that got some of his own medicine.
It is too bad he was hurt but we all know Bertuzzi didn't try to injure him. He hit the guy with his glove, trying to start a fight. That's part of the game, like it or not.
I hope the league sees the severity of the problem from all this mess.

[bubba]

They already see it. They see hockey fans as the same as the Romans that attended the games to see the blood and death. It ain't gonna change til the fans force it to change.

[Colin]

Moore was a cheap shot artist that got some of his own medicine.
It is too bad he was hurt but we all know Bertuzzi didn't try to injure him. He hit the guy with his glove, trying to start a fight. That's part of the game, like it or not.
I hope the league sees the severity of the problem from all this mess.

I am in no way supporting the play that Bertuzzi did that day. He is more valueable to the Canucks as a goal scorer than a goon. However in defense of that (and we have seen that video thousands of times now in BC) I would suspect (IMHO) that Bertuzzi did mean to hit Moore, but did not know that that one puch would knock him out cold. From the replay (and as I have said, we have been forced to watch it everytime it comes up in local media) it appears as though Bertuzzi is holding Moore steady as they fall. Some of Moore's injuries could also be blamed on the pile up of his own teams after he and Bertuzzi hit the ice. Only one person knows the intentions of that hit, and we never will.

I also place blame on the Avs coaching staff that should have known better than to put a guy with a big target on his head into a shift with Bertuzzi already on the ice in the final stages of a massacre game. As Kevin said the teams had met between the two instances, but they were close games.

Unfortunately hockey has turned into another entertainment venue rather than just a game, and most teams seem to think that if they can't entertain with talent, than they might as well give the fans some WWE style "entertainment".

As for the disillusion of seeing another NHL team in Winnipeg, I too believe this is a far off dream. There have been rumours of the Penguins moving there, but it appears that they were just that, rumours.

[bjcustard]

Moore's injuries are a result of one and only one thing - a cowardly and disgusting attack from Bertuzzi.

Moore's hit on Naslund was legal. It's a shame that Naslund got hurt, but it wasn't a cheap shot, and it definitely wasn't an attempt-to-injure. The NHL doesn't say it was. No one outside of Vancouver says it was a cheap shot.

Colorado's coaching staff (and Vancouver's for that matter) are not to blame. They didn't blindside Moore, and ride him into the ice.

Bertuzzi gets the blame - all of it - because he DID it. Blaming Moore or coaches is akin to blaming Brashear because he got his head in the way of McSorley's stick.

The real problem isn't that Bertuzzi hit Moore... the problem is that McSorley's suspension wasn't long enough to stop Bertuzzi from making such an attack. We can all agree that one attack like this is too many. If penalties for attempt-to-injure were measured in YEARS, maybe Bertuzzi wouldn't have attacked him.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

And yet, here I sit. A guy that's played ice hockey for almost my entire life... albeit not on the Pro level. But so what?! The emotions on the ice are universal no matter where you are. Hey, Mystery Alaska was a freakin' MOVIE. In that same light, so was SlapShot (which I just finished watching). I can tell you that playing for the North American Junior Championships in 1978 was just as intense as anything I've ever done. You think we were concerned with what the referees might call when you're in the heat of battle?

When you're in THAT type of competition, and take it with any seriousness and heart, you're gonna do something stupid once in a while. Some just go WAY beyond the normal threshold... and should be called on it.
You're NOT going to stop fighting in hockey, just as you're not going to stop elbows in basketball, gouges and rabbit punches in football, or brush-back pitches in baseball. It's a man's sport... and men can do stupid things.

Something premeditated is an entirely different discussion, and one that's better left to a forum with lawyers.

~Incidentally, I'm in Philly, and STILL can't figure-out who in the Sam Hill "Crosby" is? And why Bing's career might influence sports.

[KMacT]

Moore's injuries are a result of one and only one thing - a cowardly and disgusting attack from Bertuzzi. Moore's hit on Naslund was legal. It's a shame that Naslund got hurt, but it wasn't a cheap shot, and it definitely wasn't an attempt-to-injure. The NHL doesn't say it was. No one outside of Vancouver says it was a cheap shot.

I agree. My *recollection* of the Moore hit was that it was clean. Hard. On a guy with his head down and not watching where he was going. But clean. I have not been able to recently review the video of it, so this is based on an old memory of the event. But even if it wasn't a clean hit, even Vancouver's coach was only asking for an elbowing penalty on the play. Not a suspension. If it was a penalty that wasn't called - so be it. The game is full of those and that *is* part of the game. But my best recollection is that it was a clean hit.

I intend to respond the Bear's most recent post, but don't have the time right now.

Kevin

[Colin]

~Incidentally, I'm in Philly, and STILL can't figure-out who in the Sam Hill "Crosby" is? And why Bing's career might influence sports.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hl.savior0801/

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature.asp?fid=8889

and Bear was wrong, he's gone to the Peguins not the Flyers.

[Casey]

Just to change the tempo a bit, there are some Canadians who are not big hockey fans. In fact, my wife and I enjoyed, in the non-season, not having to dodge the traffic jams, out here in Kanata, caused by the Senator games at the Corel Centre.

This being said by a boy from Gordie Howe's home town. Go figure,eh!