Are you a romantic?

[Shay]

No, no, I wasn't speaking to all the men in this thread, I'm sorry, my darling son was biting my ankles (quite literally, ow) as I was typing that out...

What I was more addressing is this feeling that feminists (of which I am one, and proud of it) are man-hating, politeness-lacking bigots of some sort- which some of the posts were tending towards, and pointing out that that as kilt-wearing men, I was surprised that one or two couldn't recognize sexism when they saw it.

Not you, and not really anyone in particular, actually, I just I guess wanted to present another point of view to the "women hate chivalry," which is misleading- we love romantic and polite men. It's the chauvinists and players we're generally not too fond of- who often hide behind the letter of sensitivity, but not the spirit!

[Dreadbelly]

Question. An honest question. No flames intended.

Why is it ok for a woman to be a feminist, even proud to be one, but if a man is a masculinist, it is just plain wrong and no amount of debate can change that? When a woman does it, it is empowering. When a man does it, it is chauvinistic to the extreme. What gives?

I am not a masculinist. I believe in complete equality of the sexes with no side greater than the other. I just ask a lot of questions, and watch with dumbfounded awe how people use blatant double standards to their advantage.

It has been my accurate observation that feminists desire to not only be treated as equals, but also to be held to a different standard at the same time... Which is confusing as it pollutes their intended purpose.

Not one single woman has ever offered a satisfactory answer to these queries. Mostly I get angry flames, vile insults, and attacks, which are all none to suble forms of directing attention away from the question which can't seem to be answered with out acknowleding blatant hypocracy.

Why bother being a feminist at all? Why not just be a woman? That is the state of equality. To push the issue over on the scale any farther tips the balance and equality can not possibly exist under these conditions. The same can be said for men. I don't see why we can't all just get along with out either side asking for special consideration to "even out the playing field" which is really just a bunch of hogwash.

Oh, and since I am asking these sorts of questions, and I am bound to raise all kinds of hostilities here, even though it is not my intent, perhaps somebody would also care to answer the following question.

Why is it if a man were to lift a woman's skirt or ask if she was wearing underpants, he would be slapped silly and likely get a sexual harassment charge, but when a woman does this same sort of thing to a kilted man, we are told to "lighten up" "It's only a joke" and my favourite, "You should feel flattered!" And if we slap a woman, not only are we victims of sexual harassment, but we would also get busted for battery, but a woman can slap the crap out of us for our questions and do so with impunity. "It's a woman's right." I guess we don't have any, being male.

:confused:

[Shay]

Question. An honest question. No flames intended.

Why is it ok for a woman to be a feminist, even proud to be one, but if a man is a masculinist, it is just plain wrong and no amount of debate can change that? When a woman does it, it is empowering. When a man does it, it is chauvinistic to the extreme. What gives?

If you were to say to me: I am a masculinist, and I believe that men are as good as women, and that there are positive and awesome things about the male gender that should be celebrated and brought out, instead of denigrated and hidden... I would be so right there with you. Since no one I know of has come out with a positive counterpart to feminist I can't agree with the word, but as for that particular sentiment, I am right behind you, brother. Since men in general (not in carefully picked specifics!) are still better off in pay, housing, health, and general living than women, I don't think our job is done, you and I as differently gendered folks have some stuff to work out together.

I am not a masculinist. I believe in complete equality of the sexes with no side greater than the other. I just ask a lot of questions, and watch with dumbfounded awe how people use blatant double standards to their advantage.

It has been my accurate observation that feminists desire to not only be treated as equals, but also to be held to a different standard at the same time... Which is confusing as it pollutes their intended purpose.

Well, I gave my definition of a feminist above, only turned it around to 'your' side. Socrates asked a lot opf questions, but started with the assertion that he knew nothing, not everything. If you're going with the Socratic method rather than playing devil's advocate (which is cool, too, and fun!) then perhaps you should revise your starting point.
Oh, and you think that is your accurate observation, but really, don't we all notice the jerks and the wankers more than the nice, ordinary people who don't kick up a fuss? I know of course that all men aren't evil sexual predators... but they don't show on the news, "Tonight, John Q Public went out with a woman and was a perfect gentleman! And he likes dogs!" We all hear the worst parts of whatever behavior is deemed sensational at the time. For every 'feminist' that's saying men are all rapists and horrible people, there's some guy saying women are harridans and whores. For every feminist saying 'don't hold the door,' there's some man telling his daughter not to have sex while handing his son a condom. For every... ah, I'm sure you can think of examples on your own.

Why bother being a feminist at all? Why not just be a woman? That is the state of equality. To push the issue over on the scale any farther tips the balance and equality can not possibly exist under these conditions. The same can be said for men. I don't see why we can't all just get along with out either side asking for special consideration to "even out the playing field" which is really just a bunch of hogwash.

You seem awfully hung up on the word feminist, but okay- the reason I consider myself a feminist rather than 'just a woman' is because being a woman isn't the important part. Being a person is. The phrasing of that question belies the point I tried to make in my earlier post.

Why is it if a man were to lift a woman's skirt or ask if she was wearing underpants, he would be slapped silly and likely get a sexual harassment charge, but when a woman does this same sort of thing to a kilted man, we are told to "lighten up" "It's only a joke" and my favourite, "You should feel flattered!" And if we slap a woman, not only are we victims of sexual harassment, but we would also get busted for battery, but a woman can slap the crap out of us for our questions and do so with impunity. "It's a woman's right." I guess we don't have any, being male.

:confused:

I don't know, I didn't make up those rules. I believe the gentlemen made up the rule that you can't hit a woman, because we're the weaker sex. Which is nice, I guess, but we're catching up, you know? I think as time goes on, and women come more and more into physical jobs like police work, construction, and big rig driving, we're going to see either more and more women who hit back- and more and more men who hit back. Either way is fine with me- you should always stand up to a bully, especially when they think they've got all the answers ahead of time. Tell you what- I've been telling women I know and love for a long time not to hit, sexually assult, or abuse men just because 'we can,' will you tell men you know and love the same thing?

[Dreadbelly]

Either way is fine with me- you should always stand up to a bully, especially when they think they've got all the answers ahead of time. Tell you what- I've been telling women I know and love for a long time not to hit, sexually assult, or abuse men just because 'we can,' will you tell men you know and love the same thing?

You answered those questions far better than most. I admire your reason.

Now, to adress the men hitting women. I asked that only as an example. I don't believe in it. And yes, it's the whole fairer sex thing. I don't tell the men I know around me not to hit women... Doesn't do me much good. That said, when a man strikes a woman and I see it, he is about to get the beating of his life and then some. Call it education in terms that a man can understand.

I don't like the word "feminist." It takes away from what women are trying to achieve. It implies by the very nature of the word, an elevated standard. While I have no real idea what word to replace it with, I just know that it needs to go. I don't have all the answers, but I do ask most of the questions. Feminist implies an "us vs them" mentality, which most of the time starts out any confrontation of the issues to start out with some sort of emotional bias and is bound to bring about conflict. This only serves to destablise a situation and nothing good can come of that. This is self evident and true with all sorts of equality issues... Look at the civil rights movement. It was with MLK pushing for racial equality that some results were achieved, while X and his views mostly brought about a sense of being unsettled, "us vs them" and in the long run, more conflict as both sides polarised around the issue.

While dramatic action and conflict get all the attention, it is the quiet unnoticed acts that get the results.

[bubba]

Feminist, masculinist, doesn't matter. Just treat others regardless of gender with respect. Personally, I tend to be very courteous to women and treat my wife like royalty. The ONLY reason I see as valid for hitting anyone is in self defense or defense of another. I rather pity people that see courtesy as demeaning. Little things like holding doors for ladies and all the other gentlemanly behaviors are components of the lubricant that makes for a civilized society. Good manners are never out of style.

[Dreadbelly]

Feminist, masculinist, doesn't matter. Just treat others regardless of gender with respect. Personally, I tend to be very courteous to women and treat my wife like royalty. The ONLY reason I see as valid for hitting anyone is in self defense or defense of another. I rather pity people that see courtesy as demeaning. Little things like holding doors for ladies and all the other gentlemanly behaviors are components of the lubricant that makes for a civilized society. Good manners are never out of style.

Thank you Bubba... A very good choice of words there.

[Shay]

I don't like the word "feminist." It takes away from what women are trying to achieve. It implies by the very nature of the word, an elevated standard

I politely disagree with you. All things being equal, I wouldn't have to call myself a feminist. Until they are, I do. If we cannot agree on the word, can we at least agree on the idea that both of us are fiercely proud or what our gender can do and has done, and that we hope society reforms itself to accept both as equals in every sense of the word?

I answered your question as best I can, and hope you don't think I was belittling you personally in stating my views- I wrote you a PM about it but feel I should add publicly that message was one of many in the thread that nettled me and just the one I picked to make my point to.

My role model in feminism is Miss Manners, BTW, who would also tell us to treat everyone with respect and care, not just ladies! That being said, I will offer up my respect to the owners of the forums and suggest that we either continue this conversation in PM, or start a new thread in the Off Topic forum.

[Dreadbelly]

My favourite fems are Susan B Anthony and Emma Goldman. Being an anarchist my self, I would be a dolt to exclude the latter.

[bubba]

My wife is my favorite feminist. She doesn't use labels and would be horrified to be thought of that way. She just goes about her business and never lets anyone tell her she can or can't do things. She's invariably polite and kind to everyone and gains respect through her conduct. You might wonder why she married a bum like me, well, so do I and I sure ain't gonna rock the boat.

[macgreggor]

hey all,
i haven't followed this thread until now but i find the exchange of ideas and ideals, WITHOUT resorting to personal attacks or insults refreshing!

thank you all for showing that disagreeing does not need to be disagreeable.

macG