Great Kilts

[bubba]

Out of all this my impression would be that the wealthier the person the brighter the tartan. It's entirely possible the most common might have been in shades of brown. After all, brown does come in a wide variety of shades and tones. Just a guess on my part.

[davedove]

Out of all this my impression would be that the wealthier the person the brighter the tartan. It's entirely possible the most common might have been in shades of brown. After all, brown does come in a wide variety of shades and tones. Just a guess on my part.

That's probably a reasonable guess. Throughout history, some colors were just more expensive than others, so it stands to reason that would also be the case for tartan.

[Dreadbelly]

That's probably a reasonable guess. Throughout history, some colors were just more expensive than others, so it stands to reason that would also be the case for tartan.

Yeah. Like that purple that came from the sea snails. I think it was the Pheonicians that built an empire around that.

So vibrant and pretty.

[Tiran]

I'm currently designing and finishing a "tailored" breacon feileadh mor. It will be a hybrid of a breacon feileadh mor and a breacon feileadh beg. I guess that makes it a feileadh-middle? The design is DONE, and is as easy to put-on as a casual kilt. This all came about because the SCA was looking for something that was not available out there. There were also a number of guys that were looking for the "full" look without the pain of the gathering. This will make it as easy as a feileadh beg.

I am looking forward to that information. As a SCAdian (which is how I wandered into kilt wearing) I frequently wear a great kilt. I just pinned the pleats and had my sister run a stitch at my waist length so I don't have to repleat them everytime. Its quick enough to put on (although I still have to lay down) and I can even get dressed in my dummy dome tent. You are right, doesnt fold worth **** now so its a pain to pack. However I used poly cotton blends for weight and washability, so i dont worry to much about hanging or other issues. I figure knife pleats arent period anyway lol

[Sir Robert]

MAC you have made your argment, you may be right, I could be quite wrong.

However let me say this, if you asked me to describe a 21rst century American, I would say T-shirt with some tobacco company logo and bule jeans. A quick look in my closet would find 13 pairs of pants only 2 pair are blue jeans, and that is not counting 3 kilts or at least a dozen shorts. So that would be 2 of 28 or 1 of 14 or 7%.

Another anology might be that 99+% of US Civil War re-enactors wear pegged sole shoes, while US Army records indicate that a miniscule 1.5% of footwear was pegged. Once an idea is out there the fact that it has not been documented will never be a good reason to change the opinion of the faithful.

So there is a small chance that I could be right.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Robert,

I agree, we actually know very little about what the men of the Highlands of Scotland wore 400 or 300 years ago.

However, I find this argument to be used most often by those who don't really have any other evidence for their positions (I'm not meaning you, here, but just in other discussions I have had). For whatever reason, people tend to get really emotional about their kilts.

I saw a web site once of a reenactment unit that was supposed to portray soldiers fighting at Bannockburn. Their photo showed them all decked out in great kilts (for those who might not know, Bannockburn was fought in 1314, the first evidence we have of the great kilt comes in 1594). In the article they had about their "uniform" they mention a fourteenth century account that described the great kilts being worn by soldiers.

I emailed them for more information. I told them I was curious as to what this fourteenth century account was, as what was usually considered the first account of the great kilt wasn't until 1594. If this fourteenth century source really did describe the great kilt, it would be an important discovery!

The email I recieved back basically called me a jerk for even asking. In so many words he admitted that he couldn't prove the Scots wore the great kilt in 1314, but since we don't really know what they wore,I couldn't prove they didn't, so there! (No "fourteenth century account" was ever given).

This is just to illustrate that speculation will only get you so far. And it is very very hard to prove a negative. Maybe they had duct tape in the sixteenth century. We can't prove they didn't!

But it is our job as modern people looking back to give the most weight to what we *do* know and extrapolate from there. Our conclusions may not be 100% right all of the time, but as we add more information to our data, the more accurate our positions will be.

Right now all the data we have from the period that the great kilt was worn would indicate that the most popular cloth for the plaids was of a tartan design. We do have some evidence for solid colors, so we know this was also done. But from all accounts this seemed to be the exception to the rule. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, we continue to see solid kilts being worn, again, though, as the exception, not the rule.

An analogy would be the leine, the Gaelic shirt that preceded the kilt. Sixteenth century accounts of this shirt, worn in Scotland and Ireland, usually describe the color as "saffron." Some accounts, though, simply say they were "dyed" and there is at least one account, if I remember right, that says they were "dyed various colors." A couple of accounts say they were "undyed." But no specific color is mentioned other than "saffron" and that color is mentioned a lot.

So from this evidence, we can safely say that the most common color of leine was saffron, but that some were dyed different colors and some were not dyed at all. But saffron was most common.

You bring up pants. Blue jeans are a good example. Blue is obviously the most common color for denim jeans. So common that it's even become part of the name -- "blue jeans." Yes, some people have jeans that are black, or green, or brown. But go to any public gathering and look at people wearing jeans (or even jean shorts). 99% of them will be some shade of blue.

If people 500 years from now wanted to reennact the 21st century, most of the jeans they make would need to be blue to accurately reflect this.

Same thing with saffron shirts. Same thing with tartan kilts. There are exceptions to every rule, but we can't go beyond the available evidence to make the exception the norm.

Aye,
M

[Jimmy Carbomb]

I am looking forward to that information. As a SCAdian (which is how I wandered into kilt wearing) I frequently wear a great kilt.

Tiran, this is SPECIFICALLY for the SCA guys that LOVE to hit the "wars" and drink til they win. It's not there to be a replacement for a wrapped great kilt, but rather a VERY EASY alternative for those that enjoy the experience, want to get a little deeper into the mood, and not go through the "fun" of doing an authentic wrap. It will be readily available in November.

The orders are already large from a load of groups throughout North America. Apparently, organizations are more than happy to let their members run with this. Those that want "little kilts" can hit any of the current (or future) kilt makers. I won't be making those anymore... except for friends and family.

[MacConnachie]

I expect that there has been some discussion of various "costumery" related sites on the internet, but the following link will give a person access to a site where the matter of what ancient Celtic peoples wore and didn't wear is discussed with some apparent "authority."

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/celtic/index.html

I'm interested in knowing what the forum members here think of this and similar sites, as the author seems to speak with some reasonable authority on the matter.

The link within the page indicated by list takes you to a page where there are further links to sites about how other ancient folk clothed themselves.

[Kiltedmusiclover]

I'm interested in knowing what the forum members here think of this and similar sites, as the author seems to speak with some reasonable authority on the matter.....

Having read through the linked web sites, I will stick with Matt.
An Authority we can TRUST and Who gets facts with his history.