Origin of "Muted" tartan?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Robert:

One can see how such a bozo might want a muted tartan.

Ok, sorry, you said "bozo" and not "fool."

You may not have meant it, but your original post read (to me) as if you were implying that only poseurs and people having the wool pulled over their eyes by greedy retailers would want to wear "muted" colors.

I agree that there is a large-scale misconception out there regarding the so-called "ancient" colors. I know a lot of people immediately are drawn to them simply because they are called "ancient," the implication being that these are older, more authentic colors. In reality, the "ancient" color scheme is actually newer than the so-called "modern" color scheme.

But the unfortunately choice of names aside, people are certainly welcome to choose whatever colors they take a fancy to. And this thread wasn't even asking about ancient or modern, but about the muted colors. There are more out there! Reproduction, weathered, faded, antique, etc. It's no wonder some people were confused.

Prestor John originally asked what the muted colors were all about. I beleive that your answer could lead one not already familiar with the color terms to beleive that only ignorant neophytes or "bozos" as you describe would choose "muted" colors. My main concern was that John, and others reading, would feel free to wear whatever color scheme they found attractive.

Personally, I find the muted range of colors offered by The House of Edgar (that was what we were talking about) to be particularly attractive -- and very similar to the old nineteenth century dye colors used by Wilsons of Bannockburn.

Aye,
Matt

[Archangel]

I'm doing a lot of editing here before i say anything but ....I can't believe the pomposity of some people, and I'll leave it there.

Prestor John: go with MAC's statements, and Cajunscots, on these kinds of issues. He'll usually give you both points of view: what I call the 1780's fluff and the realistic view. And I love the 1780's stuff, my birth country would go broke if people ignored it. Keep both views in mind, they both have value but neither has priority.

Me, my next tailored formal kilt will probably be the Rob Roy from the movie. I know it's new. I also know that it was well researched and is as credible as any other named kilt. And nobody can challenge that whether I wear it formal or in t-shirt and sandals. Certain attitudes really upset me. McGregor: despite them.

So, by the way, MAC, you never really got to the question, but it's probably answered on your website.

[Prester John]

Well

I kinda feel bad that I started this thread, but in reality, what tartan isn't "new?" Anything we have record of is newer than 500 years, and most of them younger than 200. That's new in human history.

I'm grateful and appreciative of the traditionalist and the purist. I can't see myself wearing a contemporary kilt, though I have nothing against them. I'm just not "hip" enough! I have a parishioner who wears one regularly!

I also appreciate the attempt, successful, to bring tartans to a more flexible and therefore marketable audience. It is sensible, and acceptable, but not traditional.

I was just looking for a clergy tartan that looks better than what I was seeing, or an alternative to what I want, but can't, and maybe never will be able to, afford. That is the reality for me.

Soooooo, let me apologize to everyone up front. This innocent question became an occassion for hard feelings, or taking sides. This forum is fun for me, and I don't want it to be anything else for all of you.

Did you know today is Kilt Day? haha

Because I have to be so fiscally careful, a woolen clergy kilt purchase will be my only wool kilt purchase for a long time. I'm just trying to make it right.

Thanks for understanding. Thank you all for participating in this thread, but let's start another for different topics.

Maybe one for "opinions" and varying degrees of strictness for tartan! I'll put my two cents in!

[bubba]

Don't worry about it. I doubt there are any hard feelings. We do tend to have opinions and sometimes get a bit forceful in expressing them is all.

[Sir Robert]

Don't worry about it. "mac" is on a one man crusade to tell the whole world that anybody can wear any tartan they please. For the most part he is quite right.

Me, I tend to see both the bright and dark side of an issue.

"mac" is THE EXPERT on tartans, period. I really doubt that there is any other human being who knows more about tartans than he. We have little choice but to take his word as fact. However he sells tartan kilts as a side buisness thus he has a conflict of interest. See the ying and yang here?

The tartan can be a symbol of one's family, heratage, nation, masculinity. The tartan can just as easily be a symbol of those who betrayed your family, as a denial of one's nation and much to our shame, there those who wear the tartan kilt as cross-dressers. Again do you see the ying and yang?

It is not personal, it is not a fight, it is just good clean disscussion of what is in fact a highly emotional symbol. If it wasn't why would we wear it?

[bubba]

It is not personal, it is not a fight, it is just good clean disscussion of what is in fact a highly emotional symbol. If it wasn't why would we wear it?

er....because it's comfortable and doesn't put the boys in a vice?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

"mac" is on a one man crusade to tell the whole world that anybody can wear any tartan they please. For the most part he is quite right.
..."mac" is THE EXPERT on tartans, period. I really doubt that there is any other human being who knows more about tartans than he. We have little choice but to take his word as fact. However he sells tartan kilts as a side buisness thus he has a conflict of interest. See the ying and yang here?

First off, I appreciate the compliments. But I must say that there are plenty of people out there who know more about tartan than I do, and I defer to them whenever possible.

But it does bother me when people assign me motives. I am not on a one man crusade to tell anyone they can wear any tartan they please. Far from it. What I want to do is to get past all the myths and legends that people associate with Highland Dress and show the simple truth of the matter.

I think if you go back and read my writings, either on this forum, in my blog, or in the Scottish Banner, you will see this. While I debunk the myth that these "clan tartans" had their origins thousands of years ago in the ancient celtic past, and I debunk the myth that there exists a "right" or "entitlement" to a tartan, I also remind people that tartan, over the past 200 years and continuing today, has been used in a representative fashion. And when you wear a tartan, you are identifying yourself with that the tartan represents.

So yes, people can wear any tartan they choose to. But this is not the same as advocating that you should choose any tartan willy-nilly. We all have our own reasons for making our choices. I knew a fellow once whose mother was Scottish and he wanted to wear her tartan. The only reason he hadn't bought a kilt yet was because someone at some Highland Games told him he had to wear his father's tartan and could not wear his mother's. When I offered to supply him a kilt in his mother's tartan, he was amazed. "I didn't know you could do that!" he said. He was both relieved and excited to finally be in the kilt.

I wouldn't suggest that anyone who was not ordained clergy wear a kilt in the Clergy tartan, for instance. But when someone is wearing a Clergy kilt, I don't feel the need to ask for some form of ID to make sure they are "legitimate."

I do sell kilts, but I see it as an extension of what I try to do in my writing. I don't just want people to know about kilts and tartan on an academic level. I want to keep the tradition alive, and that means having people wearing the kilt -- but wearing it well. I honestly don't see a conflict of interests here.

If all I were interested in were making money, I'd open up an Ebay store and sell Pakistani imports all day long. Instead, I choose to sell quality products, and don't usually sell a kilt without exchanging a dozen emails and usually a few phone calls with the client to make sure he gets exactly what he wants and is making an informed decision. Really, I only sell kilts to support my kilt making habit (have to have something to do with all these kilts I'm making, might as well sell them!). I take pride in my work, and by that I mean both making kilts and writing about them.

So really, let's not judge motives here, ok. As I said in a previous post, my only consideration in this thread was that someone who was considering buying a tartan in the "muted" color scheme not feel like they shouldn't get what they want because someone suggested that it was not "authentic" (whatever that word means anymore!).

Aye,
Matt

[Sir Robert]

Well Father, it seems as though you might need to consider more than just what tartan to pick, faded or modern, fabric: PV vs Wool, what weight material: oz-per-yard, how many yards: 4 vs 8, modern vs traditional cut.

Of course each answer will have an effect on the price too.

[Archangel]

Don't worry about it. "mac" is on a one man crusade to tell the whole world that anybody can wear any tartan they please. For the most part he is quite right.

Me, I tend to see both the bright and dark side of an issue.

"mac" is THE EXPERT on tartans, period. I really doubt that there is any other human being who knows more about tartans than he. We have little choice but to take his word as fact. However he sells tartan kilts as a side buisness thus he has a conflict of interest. See the ying and yang here?

The tartan can be a symbol of one's family, heratage, nation, masculinity. The tartan can just as easily be a symbol of those who betrayed your family, as a denial of one's nation and much to our shame, there those who wear the tartan kilt as cross-dressers. Again do you see the ying and yang?

It is not personal, it is not a fight, it is just good clean disscussion of what is in fact a highly emotional symbol. If it wasn't why would we wear it?

A rather harsh assessment of Matt. He's clear and presents both sides. I'm in a position to check his information and, so far, so good. And I have no vested interest in denouncing rigid tradition and also respecting people's tastes. Therefore, I don't see a ying and yang. You may have to explain that comment a bit further.

[Rampant Lion]

The "ancient" colors often display the sett better than modern. In the case of my own clan, Grant, the preference of the current Chief is for ancient colors both in the "regular" and hunting (aka Blackwatch) tartans, so you see a lot of ancient colors at Grant gatherings. Grant is one tartan that definitely looks a _lot_ better in ancient than modern colors.

Will Pratt

That is a matter or opinion. I quite like my modern Grant, whereas I don't care for the ancient Grant. However, I do prefer the ancient Hunting Grant to the modern.

(Was doing a search for Grant related threads and saw this, just thought I'd give my 2 cents)

William