Scottish names vs. English or Irish

[Cawdorian]

It is my understanding that both spellings are correct, both are Scottish. The Stewarts were the hereditary High Stewards of Scotland. The name Stewart is an occupational name.

Jim

[sav]

One difference in Irish and Scottish names:

Ireland-The head of a given family would adopt "Ua" (grandson) followed by the name of an ancestor. i.e. Ua Suilleabhain=> O'Sullivan.

Scotland-surnames were often formed by adding relationships: so James, son of John, son of Donald=>Seumas mac Iain mhic Domhnuill. As the scottish names were anglicanized, Mc or Mac was the accepted form.



P.S. The examples I give are found in James MacKay's "Clans and Tartans of Scotland."

[davedove]

You have to remember that standard spellings of names is a relatively recent development. Many times, if a person was required to write his name, he wrote it the way it sounded. Thus, even people from the same family (sometimes even the same individual at different times) would spell the name differently.

Not that there couldn't be some Stewards of English origin. Remember in olden times, steward was an occupation, so for instance, John the steward would become John Steward.

So what I'm saying is don't get too hung up on spelling. The only way you can really find the origins of a family name is through genealogical research.

[macwilkin]

So what I'm saying is don't get too hung up on spelling. The only way you can really find the origins of a family name is through genealogical research.

Speaking as a former genealogical librarian, many thanks Dave, for summing up what we've been preaching for years! :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Todd

[Andrew Breecher]

I'm always fascinated by cultures that use the father's (or mother's) name in the next generation's name. Mac * in Gaelic-speaking lands, -son and -dóttir in Iceland, and so on. Unfortunately my father's name doesn't ring true with either of those systems (Andrew MacJerry (Andrew O'Raymond), or Andrew Jerryson). Are there any other systems like that still in use these days?

Andrew.

[jfellrath]

I'm always fascinated by cultures that use the father's (or mother's) name in the next generation's name. Mac * in Gaelic-speaking lands, -son and -dóttir in Iceland, and so on. Unfortunately my father's name doesn't ring true with either of those systems (Andrew MacJerry (Andrew O'Raymond), or Andrew Jerryson). Are there any other systems like that still in use these days?

Possibly the Russians... perhaps not formally, as your last name is always your father's first name plus "ovitch" but as a nickname/friendly name.

[Doc Hudson]

Possibly the Russians... perhaps not formally, as your last name is always your father's first name plus "ovitch" but as a nickname/friendly name.

I remember hearing Dr. Curt Porter in a Russian History class talking about this years ago. He spoke of the widespread problem of illegitamacy during and shortly after the "Great Patriotic War", known elsewhere as World War II. And owing to Russian custom, a patronymic was required. Most of the got stuck with Ivanovich or Ivanova (for son or daughter of Ivan) as a patronymic.

Dr. Porter said it was almost as if some powerful and potent Ivan Ivanovich was striding across the land impregnating Russian girls right, left and center.

Funny the things that stick in theback of your mind for nearly 30 years and leap to the surface with just little nudge.

BTW, the patronymic is more of a middle name than a last name. The Russians use ordinary family names, the patronymic just identifies who the father is. For example Vassily Ivanovich Zhukov's son Andre's full name would be Andre Vassilivich Zhukov.

[macwilkin]

I remember hearing Dr. Curt Porter in a Russian History class talking about this years ago. He spoke of the widespread problem of illegitamacy during and shortly after the "Great Patriotic War", known elsewhere as World War II. And owing to Russian custom, a patronymic was required. Most of the got stuck with Ivanovich or Ivanova (for son or daughter of Ivan) as a patronymic.

Dr. Porter said it was almost as if some powerful and potent Ivan Ivanovich was striding across the land impregnating Russian girls right, left and center.

Funny the things that stick in theback of your mind for nearly 30 years and leap to the surface with just little nudge.

BTW, the patronymic is more of a middle name than a last name. The Russians use ordinary family names, the patronymic just identifies who the father is. For example Vassily Ivanovich Zhukov's son Andre's full name would be Andre Vassilivich Zhukov.

When I attempted to read "Doctor Zhivago" (I never finished it), I had to make a "crib sheet" of all of the character's names, nicknames, etc.

Cheers,

Todd

[jfellrath]

BTW, the patronymic is more of a middle name than a last name. The Russians use ordinary family names, the patronymic just identifies who the father is. For example Vassily Ivanovich Zhukov's son Andre's full name would be Andre Vassilivich Zhukov.

Thanks, Doc. I knew I was remembering that from somewhere. I think I actually recalled it from a Tom Clancy novel - when Jack Ryan's Soviet Counterpart would refer to him as Ivan Emmetovich.

[Andrew Breecher]

Possibly the Russians... perhaps not formally, as your last name is always your father's first name plus "ovitch" but as a nickname/friendly name.

Ah, thank you. I had heard of the Russian method, but had forgotten it.

The prefix "Fitz" is actually a Norman term for "son of" -- That is why you have many Irish surnames like Fitzgerald, Fitzpatrick, FitzWilliam, etc., because the Normans were "invited" to Ireland in 1169 and were soon assimilated into Irish society. The Anglo-Normans also moved to Scotland, and some of the most famous Scottish names -- Bruce, Hay, Grant, etc. are actually Norman in origin.

My family's Irish name Bennett is probably from the French Benoit.

Also don't forget that folks Americanize their names_ Sean vs Shawn, Shevonne vs Siobhan, etc- IIRC, it was common practice to immigrant officers here to make up a name spelling when pressed for time or faced with someone they couldn't understand well.

My forefather Johann Brücher, one of many German immigrants living in Wisconsin, enlisted in the Civil War. The enlisting officer couldn't figure out his German name, so he became John Breecher in official paperwork.

Andrew.