Scottish names vs. English or Irish

[weekilter]

Just read a post on another forum who claimed that the name Stewart was not Scottish and that only the name Stuart was Scottish. I'm wondering if this is the same type argument one might make between surnames that start with Mac versus names that start with Mc.

[macwilkin]

Just read a post on another forum who claimed that the name Stewart was not Scottish and that only the name Stuart was Scottish. I'm wondering if this is the same type argument one might make between surnames that start with Mac versus names that start with Mc.

"Mac" and "Mc" are the same thing -- "Mc" is just an abbreviation of "Mac". Sometimes you'll even see "M'Donald", "M'kenzie", etc.

The Clan Stewart Society (US) has this to say about the spelling variants on their FAQ page:

What is the significance of the different spellings (Stewart, Stuart, Steward, etc.)?
The original spelling of the name was derived from Gaelic words for the keeper of the household and certain included accounts (steward) and the royal hereditary position, High Stewart of Scotland, created by King David I. From its beginning as a name, it was spelled with a "t" instead of a "d" on the end. The Stuart spelling resulted from the movement of Scots back and forth to France. At the time there was no "w" in the French language so the Stuart spelling is a French version, brought back to Scotland from France. Other spellings have resulted from the names being changed because they were recorded as some one heard them or because the correct spelling was simply not known.
The following are the known variations of the surname "Stewart": Sdiuord, Steuard, Steuarde, Steuart, Stevarde, Stevarte, Steward, Stewart, Stewerd, Stigeweard, Stiuard, Stiubhard, Stiubhart, Stiward, Stuard, Stuarde, Stuart, Stuarte, Stuerd, Stuward, Styward, Stywarde, Steart, Stueart and in Italy & Spain – Estuardo

-- http://www.clansstewart.org/faq.html

I would tend to go with these folks rather than the "absolute" statement that this fellow has made.

Cheers,

Todd

[Cawdorian]

It is my understanding that both spellings are correct, both are Scottish. The Stewarts were the hereditary High Stewards of Scotland. The name Stewart is an occupational name.

Jim

[sav]

One difference in Irish and Scottish names:

Ireland-The head of a given family would adopt "Ua" (grandson) followed by the name of an ancestor. i.e. Ua Suilleabhain=> O'Sullivan.

Scotland-surnames were often formed by adding relationships: so James, son of John, son of Donald=>Seumas mac Iain mhic Domhnuill. As the scottish names were anglicanized, Mc or Mac was the accepted form.



P.S. The examples I give are found in James MacKay's "Clans and Tartans of Scotland."

[davedove]

You have to remember that standard spellings of names is a relatively recent development. Many times, if a person was required to write his name, he wrote it the way it sounded. Thus, even people from the same family (sometimes even the same individual at different times) would spell the name differently.

Not that there couldn't be some Stewards of English origin. Remember in olden times, steward was an occupation, so for instance, John the steward would become John Steward.

So what I'm saying is don't get too hung up on spelling. The only way you can really find the origins of a family name is through genealogical research.

[macwilkin]

So what I'm saying is don't get too hung up on spelling. The only way you can really find the origins of a family name is through genealogical research.

Speaking as a former genealogical librarian, many thanks Dave, for summing up what we've been preaching for years! :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Todd

[Andrew Breecher]

I'm always fascinated by cultures that use the father's (or mother's) name in the next generation's name. Mac * in Gaelic-speaking lands, -son and -dóttir in Iceland, and so on. Unfortunately my father's name doesn't ring true with either of those systems (Andrew MacJerry (Andrew O'Raymond), or Andrew Jerryson). Are there any other systems like that still in use these days?

Andrew.

[jfellrath]

I'm always fascinated by cultures that use the father's (or mother's) name in the next generation's name. Mac * in Gaelic-speaking lands, -son and -dóttir in Iceland, and so on. Unfortunately my father's name doesn't ring true with either of those systems (Andrew MacJerry (Andrew O'Raymond), or Andrew Jerryson). Are there any other systems like that still in use these days?

Possibly the Russians... perhaps not formally, as your last name is always your father's first name plus "ovitch" but as a nickname/friendly name.

[Doc Hudson]

Possibly the Russians... perhaps not formally, as your last name is always your father's first name plus "ovitch" but as a nickname/friendly name.

I remember hearing Dr. Curt Porter in a Russian History class talking about this years ago. He spoke of the widespread problem of illegitamacy during and shortly after the "Great Patriotic War", known elsewhere as World War II. And owing to Russian custom, a patronymic was required. Most of the got stuck with Ivanovich or Ivanova (for son or daughter of Ivan) as a patronymic.

Dr. Porter said it was almost as if some powerful and potent Ivan Ivanovich was striding across the land impregnating Russian girls right, left and center.

Funny the things that stick in theback of your mind for nearly 30 years and leap to the surface with just little nudge.

BTW, the patronymic is more of a middle name than a last name. The Russians use ordinary family names, the patronymic just identifies who the father is. For example Vassily Ivanovich Zhukov's son Andre's full name would be Andre Vassilivich Zhukov.

[macwilkin]

I remember hearing Dr. Curt Porter in a Russian History class talking about this years ago. He spoke of the widespread problem of illegitamacy during and shortly after the "Great Patriotic War", known elsewhere as World War II. And owing to Russian custom, a patronymic was required. Most of the got stuck with Ivanovich or Ivanova (for son or daughter of Ivan) as a patronymic.

Dr. Porter said it was almost as if some powerful and potent Ivan Ivanovich was striding across the land impregnating Russian girls right, left and center.

Funny the things that stick in theback of your mind for nearly 30 years and leap to the surface with just little nudge.

BTW, the patronymic is more of a middle name than a last name. The Russians use ordinary family names, the patronymic just identifies who the father is. For example Vassily Ivanovich Zhukov's son Andre's full name would be Andre Vassilivich Zhukov.

When I attempted to read "Doctor Zhivago" (I never finished it), I had to make a "crib sheet" of all of the character's names, nicknames, etc.

Cheers,

Todd