"On Topic" Obsession, and overly stringent rules

[Doc Hudson]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I’ve said it before and I will state it clearly again:

Damn a conversation that cannot tolerate a little wandering!

The current obsession with remaining “On topic” is becoming most onerous and annoying beyond tolerance. It seems as if the moderators of this forum are bound and determined to stifle the very vivaciousness that has made it grow.

I accept that there should be rules of engagement in a public forum. And I don’t mind the ban on religious or political argument. But when mere mentions of Deity or political affiliation bring threats of deletion or banishment, that is going a bit far.

In point of reference, I will mention Dr. Douglas’ recent thread regarding dreams. Granted, the discussion got a bit esoteric, and both God and the Evil One were mentioned. No one that I saw offered argument, and no one proselytized. Yet a moderator saw fit to delete the whole thread. I consider this to be both heavy-handed and unreasonable.

Some one, I can’t remember whom, once said “Everything is about politics!” And he was right. It is all about politics, whether governmental, social, or sexual, it is all political. Wearing a kilt is a political statement. It says that we are Free Men and don’t give damn all for rules that are imposed without our consent.

Though I am not an evangelist, and I don’t consider anyone not of my denomination to be Hell-bound, the staunch anti-religion rule does chafe a bit. Quite frankly, I wonder how welcome I might be at a site that does not welcome God. I don’t mean that Xmarks should become a sight devoted to “Propagation of the Word” from any point of view. But not all mention of religion leads to argument.

I am afraid that such strict rules, and strict adherence to those rules will destroy the very ambiance that has made Xmarks THE kilted site on the Web.

Hank, this is your house and you make the rules. But if you want to have lots of guests, you should consider how stringently you enforce them.

If this thread steps on toes, that is all right, I intended it. But if it is to be deleted, I’d be most appreciative if Hank would do the honors personally, and I will take it as an invitation to go the hell away.

[sav]

Doc,
I certainly agree that perhaps the mods are being too stringent, specifically in the "Off Topic" forum.

[Graham]

Yes, perhaps this needs to be discussed a little more. I didn't see the thread that was deleted.

while I myself have had my fingers smacked a couple of times (I mean, heck, anyone who opens their mouth as much as I do has a greater chance of putting their foot in it) yet, I have to admit, and I was thinking this just today, we do have a LOT of harmony here. Just look around other boards to know that. This can come at the cost of some people being dissatisfied.

Re. getting off topic, well I do see a lot of that happening here so can we really say it isn't tolerated?
Staying on topic has as much to do with respect for the person who began the thread.

I remember one thread I started which turned into a discussion on motor vehicles - which bores me to death! I was a wee bit cheesed off!
If we want to discuss another matter, it's easy enough to start a new thread.

Doc, don't feel I'm unsympathetic to your post, you have a valid beef which should be addressed. I trust your views will be treated with the respect they deserve.

[Archangel]

Hmmm, one of those rare moments when Doc Hudson and I almost agree.
As one of the posters involved, the rules were acknowledged and respected. The posts were answering specific questions and purposefully minimal and to the point. Actually, they weren't pointed, again to honour the rules.
That brief series of posts was followed by a post from a thread admin thanking us for following and respecting the rules.

I hadn't revisited the thread and was unaware that it had been deleted until I saw this post and then Dread's signature.

I guess on one level, I'd like to have got a pm or something that would have informed me of this. It's hard to avoid these kinds of mistakes if it's not clear where the error was. (thread admin post said it had been okay.)

If it had got silly afterwards, I guess I'd like to know that too. I can understand that happening. Or even if it's linked to the recent hate mail and things are jittery, that would be sort of understandable.

Your house, your rules: fair enough, I can live with that. I knew I couldn't use the upstairs fridge, thought the downstairs one was okay. Guess you better tell me again which fridge I can use. That sort of thing.

[bear]

Right from the start XMarks has had a strict rule of no politics or religion. The rules were there when each and every one of us signed on to be a member.
I agree wholeheartedly with those rules. Religion and politics can ruin a forum very fast.

This is a site about kilts.
This area is Off Topic but still a part of the forum and subject to the rules.

Doc Hudson wrote, "I am afraid that such strict rules, and strict adherence to those rules will destroy the very ambiance that has made Xmarks THE kilted site on the Web."
The rules were in place when that ambiance was created and, in fact, contributed to the ambiance.

I didn't read the thread in question after my first look at it. It wasn't anything close to kilt related, or anything else I'm interested in. I don't know how religious it got, or even why it was killed.

NOW HEAR THIS!
I am not anti-religious, so don't even start with me. The rules on this site work, so I like them. We all signed up for a forum that doesn't allow religious or political discussion. Anyone trying to change the rules of the forum to suit their religious beliefs should be talked to by Hank right away. Any delay allows more people to feel unwelcome and that's bad for the forum.
I am for the good of this forum. I had more than enough of the religious flame wars on Tom's Cafe. Nobody changed their mind on either side. All there was was an exodus of people seeking peaceful discussion of kilts TO THIS SITE!

[Doc Hudson]

Terry,

No way in the world do I want to encourage or participate in any sort of religious arguement. As you say, no one changes their minds. But how is an Off Topic thread, that has nothing to do with any specific religion, yet manages to briefly menition not only Christianity, but Native American, and Asian beliefs, without the slightest arguement I might add, be arguementative.

Let me give you another example.

Earlier this evening, a good friend and I were having a discussion via Yahoo Instant Messenger. In the course of the conversation, we discussed politics, on which we had both agreement and spirited disagreement, social structure, where again we had spirited disagreement, religion, foreign policy, and world history. All in the course of half an hour of so. Neither of us got mad. Neither of us threatened to remove the other from our contact list. It was just a matter of two adults pleasantly discussing and debating the world's problems.

My point is that not all comments on religion or politics are arguement. Frankly I'm surprised that Todd's request for prayers for the folks in the way of Hurricane Katrina didn't get zapped. Can't get much more religious than asking for prayer.

If you don't like a topic, exercise your right to ignore it, as you did with Dr. Douglas's dream thread. There are many threads I don't read fully, and some folks whose posts I don't read at all. But as long as discussion remains civil, don't trash the whole thing!

My point is that it seems to me that some one is getting a little zap happy. And like I said, we kilted gents don't much appreciate folks telling us what we can and can't do. Now deny that with a straight face and I won't play poker with you!

[bear]

My point is that not all comments on religion or politics are arguement. Frankly I'm surprised that Todd's request for prayers for the folks in the way of Hurricane Katrina didn't get zapped. Can't get much more religious than asking for prayer.

People thank God for stuff all the time on this forum. And they say they're praying for this or that just as often. It doesn't lead to discussion or arguments. (And the comments are not stricken from the forum.)

If you don't like a topic, exercise your right to ignore it, as you did with Dr. Douglas's dream thread. There are many threads I don't read fully, and some folks whose posts I don't read at all. But as long as discussion remains civil, don't trash the whole thing!

The problem with allowing just a little bit of religion on a forum such as this, is it becomes a foothold for fundamentalists and they begin trying to convert people or telling people how to live. It happened on Tom's Cafe and almost killed the site.
Ignoring a religious thread is not the same as not having religious threads. There are lots of forums, even kilt forums, that allow or encourage religious discussion. This is not one of them. That's just the way it is.

My point is that it seems to me that some one is getting a little zap happy. And like I said, we kilted gents don't much appreciate folks telling us what we can and can't do. Now deny that with a straight face and I won't play poker with you!

We have a few new moderators. There will be an adjustment time for the members and the new mods. I counsel patience for all involved.
I have recently had a long and trying kilt related thread closed by one of the newer mods. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not that the thread is closed. There's nothing I can do about it either way. I can shrug it off and live with it.
Nobody likes being told what we can and can't do. Religious threads are not allowed on this forum at all and never have been. We knew the rules before we signed up. Trying to change them now that we're members doesn't seem proper.

[Freelander Sporrano]

As the newbie moderator on Xmarks I find one of the most difficult jobs to do is to decide when people have oversteped the line. Let me explain a little. With living in Scandinavia you develop a more relaxed attitude and become more tollerant to a lot of things that upset others.I react differntly than Americans do in some situations. I also find it difficult to "tune in" many of the words and things talked about in the off topic page I haven't a clue what people are on about therefor I leave that to others

As for Prayers being asked for I don't find that offensive just Human.I don't mind God being mentioned as long as it doesn't get all bent out of shape. As for politics I'm not qualified to even go there.

In the end the forum has a set of rules.
....and Hank has the final word

[Archangel]

I'd like to add another two points. It can be argued that all discussions revolve around the supposed "no-no's": sex, politics, and religion. That it would be better for society if we could learn to talk about those concepts without conflct and not stay in ignorance, prejudice and bigotry about them. Part of that would be knowing the time and the place. This is not the place for it because of the rules. However, because of the ubiquity of these, we're going to crashing into those limitations frequently and the limitations need to be clearer. My intention is to respect them.

The thread in question discussed the subject from a Celtic religious perspective. That would be the Scottish connection. So, a question I see, is how to discuss common Celtic symbols we wear without Kells, Lindesfarne and Iona. Another area is where the person in Germany has employer issues that are tied to religion. If we have to be silent about that, we can't advice, which is one of the primary functions of this forum. (Would also note that a lot of the members amicibly brought up a lot of religious thoughts in non-controversial ways.) Again, this is not me challenging the rules of house. My goal is to respect the rules.

There's a phrase I've run into and read here that says "rules are meant to be broken". I don't agree with that, it's the policies of those rules that are meant to be broken because policies can't fit every situation but they can define most.

[Bob C]

Why is it that some people think rules do not apply to them?

Hooray for the moderator who enforced the rule that some chose to ignore!