Is Black Watch a "Generic" Tartan?

[macwilkin]

There are a lot of Gordon and Black Watch kilts for sale at great prices, I have a Gordon which not only is "gereric" but also my clan so that is cool but is the Black Watch "generic" or is it someone's clan tartan?

How much time do you have? :mrgreen:

Technically, the Black Watch (always two words) tartan is actually known as "Government Sett" and is a military tartan, although the tartan is essentially the same as the Campbell Old Sett, since the Campbells played a hand in the raising of the regiment back in the 1730's. The Government sett is "universal" in the fact that at one time, the British Army wanted to have all Scottish regiments wear it, rather than the individual regimental tartans.

Nowadays the Black Watch is readily available for civilian wear, but its origins are military.

It is interesting to note that three military tartans, worn by Highland Regiments, have now become standard clan tartans: the Gordon, Mackenzie of Seaforth and the Cameron of Erracht.

Matt, help me on this -- I haven't had my coffee yet! ;)

T.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

I love reading the posts from The Professor (Todd).:-)

The ONLY thing to consider with the Black Watch tartan is where you're going to wear it. It's not an Irish tartan, so don't wear it in "strict" Irish situations. Other than that, 90% of the people that see it won't even know what it is.

It's up to you and your knowledge as to whether or not to get it. It's nice to see that you asked first!

"Know Your Tartan"

[Cawdorian]

One of the four Campbell tartans recognized by the Clan Chief is the Campbell "Ancient" which is basically a Black Watch "Ancient."

Jim

[Bob C]

The ONLY thing to consider with the Black Watch tartan is where you're going to wear it. It's not an Irish tartan, so don't wear it in "strict" Irish situations.

It goes deeper than that. The Black Watch is actually offensive to some Irish nationalists because of conflicts that occurred while members of that regiment were stationed in Northern Ireland.

[MacConnachie]

It goes deeper than that. The Black Watch is actually offensive to some Irish nationalists because of conflicts that occurred while members of that regiment were stationed in Northern Ireland.

My understanding of the situation, although limited, was that the Black Watch government tartan was worn by the "Black and Tans," amongst others. The Black and Tans were "beasts of the lowest degree," according to the eyewitness descriptions of their activities on behalf of the British crown in pre-republic Ireland in the years between the end of WWI and the partition of Ireland. They were very greatly despised. A friend of mine who was first in Ireland in the 1970's said that an aunt of his - whose family members remained there as contrasted with thousands who emigrated to North America during those immediate pre-Republic days - would get absolutely flintey-eyed when speaking about the Black and Tans' depredations at a time when she would have been a teenager.

From a popular song of an early era of the 20th Century:
"Come on out ye Black and Tans
Come and fight me, like a man
Show your wife how you won medals
Down in Flanders
Tell her how the IRA
Made you run, like Hell, away
From the green and lovely lanes
Of Killeshandra"

There are still Irish-Americans in our region who cringe or turn away when they see anyone dressed in Black Watch. It's interesting that this is the tartan of choice for an Ancient Order of Hibernians pipe band in a nearby town. Their response to the Black and Tans debate? Many a brave Irish lad saw military service in such dress . . .

Mac

[macwilkin]

My understanding of the situation, although limited, was that the Black Watch government tartan was worn by the "Black and Tans," amongst others. The Black and Tans were "beasts of the lowest degree," according to the eyewitness descriptions of their activities on behalf of the British crown in pre-republic Ireland in the years between the end of WWI and the partition of Ireland. They were very greatly despised. A friend of mine who was first in Ireland in the 1970's said that an aunt of his - whose family members remained there as contrasted with thousands who emigrated to North America during those immediate pre-Republic days - would get absolutely flintey-eyed when speaking about the Black and Tans' depredations at a time when she would have been a teenager.

From a popular song of an early era of the 20th Century:
"Come on out ye Black and Tans
Come and fight me, like a man
Show your wife how you won medals
Down in Flanders
Tell her how the IRA
Made you run, like Hell, away
From the green and lovely lanes
Of Killeshandra"

There are still Irish-Americans in our region who cringe or turn away when they see anyone dressed in Black Watch. It's interesting that this is the tartan of choice for an Ancient Order of Hibernians pipe band in a nearby town. Their response to the Black and Tans debate? Many a brave Irish lad saw military service in such dress . . .

Mac

Mac,

the Black and Tans and the Black Watch are two different things all together. The Black Watch, the Royal Highland Regiment, is a regiment of the British Army. The "Black & Tans" were part of the old Royal Irish Constabulary and were recruited during the Anglo-Irish War of 1919-1922, mostly from out-of-work First World War veterans in the UK. The Tans and the Auxillaries, or "Auxies" (another auxillary police force of the RIC) were NOT British soldiers, but para-military police.

Neither the Tans nor the Auxies wore kilts or tartan, although they did wear khaki balmorals. Their name came from their uniform, which was a mixture of army khaki and RIC uniforms, which prompted the Irish to nickname them after a famous breed of hunting hound, a "black and tan".

I can understand the confusion of the two because of the similarity of names, but again, the Black and Tans and the Black Watch are not the same.

Regards,

Todd

[MacConnachie]

Thanks, Todd.

I see clearly that the information I had on how the Black and Tans were originally formed was in error. The stories stated that there was a large criminal element within some of the groups, and that there were Black and Tans recruits from England and Scotland in the main.

I had never seen a picture or other representation of a Black and Tan in a kilt, so, as I earlier indicated my information was limited. I just did not comprehend how limited, and how erroneous, it was.

So, having discussed what these different groups and regiments were NOT, do you have historical information as to activities of the Royal Highland Regiment which may have directly affected the Irish? Which elements of the Regiment were posted in Ireland at various points in time? Was the recruitment of Irish boys into the Black Watch (and other regiments) by the "much beloved" recruiting sergeants (is there a sarcasm smiley?) a contributing factor in the intense dislike some Irish have for the Black Watch?

Thanks, again, for setting me straight.
Mac

[highlander_Daz]

Ive never known Irish people to be offended by Black Watch Tartan and Ive attended many "Irish" weddings and seen many people wearing black watch, maybe its a bit of coloniolism creeping in there.
The 42nd Highland Regiment are heros to the people of scotland regardless of what may have happened in the past. There conduct in Iraq recently only served to underline this upon entring the "triangle of death" a senior black watch officer emerged from his tank, removed his body armour and helmet. donned a Glengarry and piped the regiment into the war zone. my great great uncle who was in the Black watch was killed in the first world war. and was buried in France. to anyone who is offended by the Tartan of such brave fighting men should, in my opinion go and lie down in a dark room and reflect that all the freedoms we enjoy today are only available to us because of the sacrifice of these and others like them.

[Dreadbelly]

Ive never known Irish people to be offended by Black Watch Tartan and Ive attended many "Irish" weddings and seen many people wearing black watch, maybe its a bit of coloniolism creeping in there.
The 42nd Highland Regiment are heros to the people of scotland regardless of what may have happened in the past. There conduct in Iraq recently only served to underline this upon entring the "triangle of death" a senior black watch officer emerged from his tank, removed his body armour and helmet. donned a Glengarry and piped the regiment into the war zone. my great great uncle who was in the Black watch was killed in the first world war. and was buried in France. to anyone who is offended by the Tartan of such brave fighting men should, in my opinion go and lie down in a dark room and reflect that all the freedoms we enjoy today are only available to us because of the sacrifice of these and others like them.

Well said.

[Ranald]

Ive never known Irish people to be offended by Black Watch Tartan and Ive attended many "Irish" weddings and seen many people wearing black watch, maybe its a bit of coloniolism creeping in there.
The 42nd Highland Regiment are heros to the people of scotland regardless of what may have happened in the past. There conduct in Iraq recently only served to underline this upon entring the "triangle of death" a senior black watch officer emerged from his tank, removed his body armour and helmet. donned a Glengarry and piped the regiment into the war zone. my great great uncle who was in the Black watch was killed in the first world war. and was buried in France. to anyone who is offended by the Tartan of such brave fighting men should, in my opinion go and lie down in a dark room and reflect that all the freedoms we enjoy today are only available to us because of the sacrifice of these and others like them.

Bravo.