Kilts, The Wise Financial Choice

[flyv65]

Don't think so Bryan here a T-shirt is usually a cotton garment (like your fruit of the loom vest I guess) but the ones I refer would still be cotton but better quality, fitted and with an interesting design/ style and of course a designer label like Boss or Armani or D&G, Kenzo, etc.

So this is at least partially a question of fashion, hence more an issue of culture differences, as Dave has suggested. Then again, my sense of fashion may be hopelessly skewed. I live outside Denver Colorado, a town where we still run the cattle through downtown for the Stock Show each winter. I've been to a wedding where the invitation said "City Casual" so the attendees showed up in clean brewpub t-shirts and their newest Birkenstocks. (I might have to start refering to this as traditional "Rocky Mountain highland garb"). Then again, I've been to functions where most of the people present were in formal wear (this was back when my tuxedo still fit).

Bryan...then, when I lived in the south...

[bubba]

Geez, we must have some pretty wealthy people in this discussion. I've never paid more than $20 for a pair of jeans in my life and it'll be a cold day in Hell when I pay over $700 for a waistcoat, leather or not. as for what constitutes a real kilt, our forefathers would laugh themselves sick over the pretentiousness of the whole debate then take away our whisky and tell us we can have it back when we grow up.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Wow - that is style and sophistocation LOL

KP: Thanks mate ! Sorry but you obviously don't appreciate Scottish directness - that is different to being rude.

Directness is fine, but some of your comments, such as above, are offensive.

KP: Well as the owner of a website and bulletin board promoting kilt wearing of 7 years standing with over 300 pro active members from Scotland and indeed in Europe and US, I have absorbed the opinions of many over the years on this subject. I don't just speak for myself - my views are common to many....

Sorry, I don't agree. Being the owner of a website/bulletin board and knowing how to make the technology work no more makes you an authority on the topic of that site or board than driving a car makes you an expert on car engines. It may make you more knowledgable if you are also a regular poster participant on that board, or it might not. But even if it did make you an expert on that subject, that and the fact that others share your opinion still makes it nothing more than an opinion and does not give you any authority to question, change, or influence MY opinion. If your opinions are backed up with facts and presented in a rational manner, I might be convinced to change my opinion, but if not I still will honor your right to have a different opinion, an approach which you do not seem to share.

KP: there we have the cultural difference where in Europe more attention, time and expense is given to what we wear....

Again, this is your opinion (and an example of a rude comment as I believe that it implies that 'in Europe' people are more cultured and dress better as a generalization). In my travels to Germany and Luxembourg, I saw as much diversity in clothing styles as in any city that I have visited in the US.

KP: I don't dispute what you say here -(except your definition of a 'real' kilt in its entirety. I still say it cheapens the product and overall has an adverse affect on the quality of kilt available in the market. Its akin to the dumbing down elements of the society we live it.

It may cheapen the product, or it may point out that there is a demand in the marketplace for that product at a cheaper cost. Those that are willing to accept the lowered quality will buy it and those that don't won't.

RJI

[kiltedpride]

Again, this is your opinion (and an example of a rude comment as I believe that it implies that 'in Europe' people are more cultured and dress better as a generalization). In my travels to Germany and Luxembourg, I saw as much diversity in clothing styles as in any city that I have visited in the US.
RJI

Is not one of the conclusions gained from the above points is that many people in the US are not prepared to spend as much on clothes as their European counterparts and are not so influenced by matters of style and quality - or have I missed something? Were we not saying this is why the Utilikilt and pretend kilts are more popular as there is a resistance to the price of a traditional kilt despite the fact that it is in effect better value?

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Starbkjrus,

You should always feel free to join a discussion. If someone doesn't agree with what you contribute, they will let you know I think that KP and I have really just been having a sprited discussion and not taking pot shots (well maybe KP has ). Seriously, I don't see that ther is any disrespect intended by anyone who decides to wear a kilt but decides that wool and tartans patterns are not their preference. I do acknowledge though that there can be a symbolism and tradition associated with kilts. Europe has a much longer history than the US and as such, feelings may run very deep. I know from living in the South that there is a strong sense of identity arising from the Civil war and associated with the Confederate flag and that are very intense debates between people who feel that the Confederate flag is a symbol of rascism and others that feel it is just a symbol of independence.

Anyway, I think that this has just been a spirited exchange between myself and KP. I think that in the final analysis we will agree to disagree, and if not, that is OK too.

And now on to my respones to KP:

Is not one of the conclusions gained from the above points is that many people in the US are not prepared to spend as much on clothes as their European counterparts and are not so influenced by matters of style and quality - or have I missed something? Were we not saying this is why the Utilikilt and pretend kilts are more popular as there is a resistance to the price of a traditional kilt despite the fact that it is in effect better value?

Hmm, not sure if I draw that conclusion. I was really pointing out that I think that there are as many people in the US, and around the world, who are willing to pay for a top dollar kilt as there are people in the US and around the world that don't place much value on the clothes that they wear and will wear whatever is comfortable, cheap, and readily available.

I also think that there is a significant variance between regions within a country. If you compared the clothing spending and formality between Key West, FL, and Long Island, NY, you are likely going to find the same or greater differences as we are discussing.

[flyv65]

Is not one of the conclusions gained from the above points is that many people in the US are not prepared to spend as much on clothes as their European counterparts

True.

and are not so influenced by matters of style

True.

and quality - or have I missed something? Were we not saying this is why the Utilikilt and pretend kilts are more popular as there is a resistance to the price of a traditional kilt despite the fact that it is in effect better value?

That is where the wheels come off-the point is highly debatable whether or not the traditional kilt is better quality, and we have yet to determine if it is, in effect, a better value (value and quality being subjective terms, I'm not holding my breath for resolution on these matters).

Bryan...wore the CCCkilt out to dinner tonight...

[kiltedpride]

Gentlemen,
On the other hand the "modern" kilts are just that: an adaptation of an historical garment that could very well vanish from modern culture if it does not adapt to the concept of the "new world".

I agree with most of what you say, save the above. The traditional kilt is far from vanishing from modern culture and does not need to adapt. It is now worn in Scotland more than at any other time in the country's history save pre 1745 (shortly thereafter the English imposed a ban (Act of Proscription 1746) on the wearing of highland dress and it was only the Royal visit to Scotland in 1822 by King George IV and the foundation by Sir Walter Scott of the Celtic Society of Edinburgh in 1820 - the age of Romanticism and later the love of Queen Victoria for Scotland that restored the fortunes of kilting. The restoration of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 300 years after the Act of Union has also increased the feeling of national identity and a pride that manifests itself in wearing national dress.
If one goes to a Rugby International match, amongst a stadium of 65,000 supporters the majority of those will be kilted. (Even some of the opponent team supporters eg Welsh, Irish Italians and French will wear the kilt as a mark of cammaraderie). In football, the Scotland team supporters known as the Tartan Army travel far and wide throughout Europe and it is not unusual to see a town invaded by 10,000 kilted revellers (20 years ago they would have simply worn tartan scarves or bonnets - now they are fully kilted with Scotland tops, socks down to feet and booted). Most Scottish Weddings are fully kilted. Most Black Tie dinners are fully kilted. Scots grab any opportunity to get kilted up - it has never been a better time to feel comfortable about wearing a kilt.
Through increased interest in the kilt we now see a wider variety of kilts patterns - from the trendy pink PVC see thu kilt to the Saltire plaid. Sporrans are coming out in shades of colours and fashionable designs. A wider range of jackets and tops are now available. Kilting is now fun and very accessible.

[kiltedpride]

Sorry, I don't agree. Being the owner of a website/bulletin board and knowing how to make the technology work no more makes you an authority on the topic of that site or board than driving a car makes you an expert on car engines. It may make you more knowledgable if you are also a regular poster participant on that board, or it might not. But even if it did make you an expert on that subject. RJI

Sorry I don't hold myself out as an expert and I did not say that and I apologise if that was implied. Perhaps I did not clarify what I meant by being owner of website and bulletin board. I am not a passive owner. I set up a group 7 years ago to promote kilt wearing in Scotland now called the Sporran Clan - I arrange monthly meet-ups and additional meetings and events in Scotland and elsewhere (as we now have a wide church). Our method of day to day communication is by means of website and bulletin board and I contribute daily to same. The bulletin board is a mine of information on all things kilted and pertaining to Scottish culture (3000 posts on 80 subjects! and building day by day). Somewhere along the line I just might have picked up a little knowledge on the subject gleaned from research or from my 300 Clan members with whom I am in regular personal contact - but I don't hold myself out as an expert. I hope that clarifies that point and you don;t see me a nerd who simply owns a website and has no say about content or whatever.
Jamie MacSporran
Clan Chieftan - The Sporran Clan - Promoting Kilting for all.

[Mike1]

Guys, this has all the earmarks of a good thread. Let's please turn the emotional thermostats down a bit, so that the thread can continue. Remember, we are not all alike, we come from different countries and cultures and we are going to have different ideas and thoughts. And that is what makes X Marks the place that it is. Let's add light, instead of heat, OK? Thanks!

[arrogcow]

With respect there is a vast difference between a Rolls and a trad kilt - a trad kilt is after all merely the price of an office suit (or even half the price!) - I don't think the analogy fits at all.

You say it isn't a real kilt unless it costs $500+ (and that's just the kilt not a sporran, hose, jacket etc.). I've never paid more that $200 for a suit. Yes is is possible to buy a $500+ suit, but unless you're upper level management in a very big company, you probably don't have one. Is my $200 suit only a "pretend suit"?

Adam