Some interesting tartan info

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Pretty much everything quoted in the original post is pure fancy (sorry Sherry! I know you were just trying to pass on information). This is a good example of why you have to be careful what you read regarding Highland Dress. Nothing in that information is true (including the fact that Mrs Devine is one of the last kiltmakers in Scotland -- as popular as the kilt is now, I daresay that are more kiltmakers in Scotland now than ever!).

As Todd already informed us, this notion of the number of colors somehow equating to rank comes not from the world of Scottish tartans, but from the old Brehon Laws of Ireland -- I cannot remember when these Laws were composed, but I beleive they were from the early medieval period. Someone else can let us know. But these laws referred specifically to ceremonial cloaks, and the number of stripes they could contain. They were not an attempt to regulate daily clothing. Think of it like the gowns worn by faculty and professors at graduation ceremonies. The colors worn by them indicate their degrees and the schools they earned them from. But they apply only to these ceremonial garments, and are only worn for this one function.

In any case, these ancient Irish laws have absolutely nothing to do with tartan. I think they only got confused when some people, under the mistaken assumption that the kilt, and clan tartans, were brought over to Scotland some 1500 years ago by the Irish (a myth that has been thoroughly debunked), encountered these old Irish rules about colored stripes, and immediately thought of Scottish tartans. But they are two completely separate things.

If this were the case, the red MacDonald Lord of the Isles tartan that is only red and green, would make the Lord of the Isles (a king in his own right) a lowly peasant. The Earl of Airlie, however, with his complex tartan, would be the High King of Kings! It just doesn't make sense when you look at actual tartans.

Further the classification of tartans given on this site is spurrious. From the top, only a very few clans have a specific "cheif's sett." And usually these are not true "cheif's setts" to begin with. For example, there is a truly beautiful MacNab tartan that is basically a light red/dark red check. This used to be commonly used in the nineteenth century by the clan. Somewhere along the line, though, it fell out of fashion, and now people often call it the "cheif's sett," seemingly due to the fact that there is an old portrait of one of the clan cheifs wearing it. But 100 years ago it was the most common MacNab tartan seen!

I've had people in the Clan MacNeil tell me that the MacNeil with the red line is reserved to the cheif. But you, or I, or anyone else can order cloth in this tartan easily. And there is nothing in the recorded information about this tartan that would indicate it was ever reserved just for the cheif.

There are a few tartans that have been designated cheifs setts, such as MacKintosh. But this is the exception, not the norm.

Hunting colors, I suppose you could call "fall colors" in the sense that they are earth tones. But I wouldn't want anyone thinking that the use of these tartans was limited to this one season of the year.

Mourning Setts, like Cheifs Setts, are really the exception, not the norm. There are only 5 or 6 tartans recorded as "Mourning" in the International Tartan Index. There are two Stewart Mourning tartans from the late nineteenth century. These seem to be the original "Mourning" tartans. The others are all modernly designed tartans (such as the Black Rose, a mourning tartan for the Society of the Confederate Rose). No doubt these modern "mourning" tartans are inspired by the romantic idea that clans had "mourning" tartans inspired by web sites like this.

By "Womens Sett" I assume she means Dress tartans, which though they originated as women's airisaide tartans are not, strictly speaking, limited to use by women. They do typically have a lot of white, but in no way are they limited to black and white. Most are very colorful.

And the Royal Stewart has been discussed many times before on this site. I would only add that a true "Royal Sett" would be the Balmoral tartan, the use of which is actually restricted to the Royal Family, unlike Royal Stewart which can be found on shortbread tins, greeting cards, pajamas, rental kilts, wrapping paper, and pretty much anything else all over the world.

Debunking the tartan myths!

Aye,
Matt

[flyv65]

As Todd already informed us, this notion of the number of colors somehow equating to rank comes not from the world of Scottish tartans, but from the old Brehon Laws of Ireland -- I cannot remember when these Laws were composed, but I beleive they were from the early medieval period. Someone else can let us know. But these laws referred specifically to ceremonial cloaks, and the number of stripes they could contain. They were not an attempt to regulate daily clothing.

Peter Berrisford Ellis is a well known scholar and has written several books on the Celts, the source of most Gaelic tradition including the Brehon Laws. I'd have to pour back through my tomes, but I "thought" that chiefs were allowed a cloak of up to 5 colors, and that Druids. Bards, and Brehons were permitted a cloak of 6 colors. In the 4th century in Ireland Christianity began to exert a much greater sway with the populace, and the people began to "blend" the old and the new, with little heard of Druids after the 11th century, Brehon law untill the 16th century, and the Bardic arts into the 17th century. These are simply rough numbers based on my readings and I sure could be off a 100 years or so in any direction (IIRC, Boru held Druidic Advisors as well as Churchmen, Grania Ni Maille was married according to Brehon Law [the second time], and the O'Sullivan's march to Ulster was rumoured to have had a Bard).

It seems that the greatest threats to the traditional Gaelic way of life were not the English (although they were not without some blame), but the irreconcileable differences with the Roman or Latin interpretation of Christianity in the Isles folllowing the Synod of Whitby.

Bryan...hopelessly Pelagian...

[Valencian Kilted]

Peter Berrisford Ellis is a well known scholar and has written several books on the Celts, the source of most Gaelic tradition including the Brehon Laws. I'd have to pour back through my tomes, but I "thought" that chiefs were allowed a cloak of up to 5 colors, and that Druids. Bards, and Brehons were permitted a cloak of 6 colors. In the 4th century in Ireland Christianity began to exert a much greater sway with the populace, and the people began to "blend" the old and the new, with little heard of Druids after the 11th century, Brehon law untill the 16th century, and the Bardic arts into the 17th century. These are simply rough numbers based on my readings and I sure could be off a 100 years or so in any direction (IIRC, Boru held Druidic Advisors as well as Churchmen, Grania Ni Maille was married according to Brehon Law [the second time], and the O'Sullivan's march to Ulster was rumoured to have had a Bard).

It seems that the greatest threats to the traditional Gaelic way of life were not the English (although they were not without some blame), but the irreconcileable differences with the Roman or Latin interpretation of Christianity in the Isles folllowing the Synod of Whitby.

Bryan...hopelessly Pelagian...

... Well,... I agree with you that maybe the rejection of other simbols, rituals, etc,... from the Roman Catholic Church, can be responsible of such threats to the gaelic way of life, but as far as I know, (being myself a roman catholic) the traditions and indentity feelings of the population of the british isles were under a bigger danger during the cultural assimilation process promoted from the British Crown along centuries. I think that religion is not at all related to the way you dress or the way you speak. Here on my homeland we still speak another language apart from spanish (Valenciano), and there are many more speakers of Gaelic in Ireland than in Scotland by far... and be sure that catholic church in Spain has been more powerful here or in Ireland than in Scotland!

I think that religion has been always an easy excuse to start arguing (and I point all of them, even my own "Roman style" of Christianity), but in this matter, it is not the key point of it. Cultural assimilation by force or other subtile ways have been much more effective making people "forget" in Scotland than the influence of Rome.

Anyway, not being religion at all the matter for this thread, don't take in consideration this opinion at all!

As far as my district tartan is quite full of colours can that be related with the past centuries when my homeland was also a kingdom?:mrgreen:

Cheers to all! ¡Salud!

T O N O

[flyv65]

... Well,... I agree with you that maybe the rejection of other simbols, rituals, etc,... from the Roman Catholic Church, can be responsible of such threats to the gaelic way of life, but as far as I know, (being myself a roman catholic) the traditions and indentity feelings of the population of the british isles were under a bigger danger during the cultural assimilation process promoted from the British Crown along centuries. I think that religion is not at all related to the way you dress or the way you speak.

I agree almost entirely about speech and dress: however, with the structuring of the Catholic Church (in Europe) to follow the dogma espoused by St Augustine of Hippo a number of tenets in gaelic life were suddenly in conflict with the new teachings of the church, including the status of women within society, their ability to own property, Original Sin, well, quite a few other things as well.

As for cultural assimilation by the English, I'd say that it would be much more effectively defined as financial strangulation: certainly for the Scots when the crowns were consolidated, and for the Irish since the 1400's when England viewed Ireland both as a source of raw materials and as a buffer state, held prevent her enemies from gaining a foothold at England's back door. Culturally, both lands have done a fine job of assimilating the peoples planted on their soil and making them more Gael than than Angle, Saxon, Jute, or Norman.

Bryan...but as we've both said, there is no one single reason...