Wannabe Scot

[bubba]

He was called Bobbing John because he changed politics with the wind.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

...And, no matter the reasoning behind it, since this forum identifies with Scotland, ...

From the intro to this site:

X Marks the Scot is a community of kilt wearers and those who encourage the wearing of kilts....
You do not have to be Scottish to post here or to wear a kilt. The name of this forum was chosen a while ago for different purposes ...

I don't wear a kilt because it is Scottish. At one point I thought that the kilt was worn historically by the Welsh people, which gave me a tie to it and seemed a reason to wear one. I have since come to believe, primarily because of the information on this board and others, that the idea of Welsh wearing a kilt/cilt, other than fairly recently, is not supported by historical facts.

Now, why should I have to learn about Scotland because I wear a kilt? Even if I were wearing it as a symbol of heritage, I don't see that I must have any knowledge about the history of Scotland to wear it. Anymore than I would need to know the history of the Old West to wear boots and a cowboy hat. As has been stated, it is an article of clothing that happens to be associated with a certain group, like many other articles of clothing. I don't mind the history I pick up while reading this forum, but I do have an issue with it being an "expectation" of me.

By the same token, I do understand that for you, and others, the kilt is tied very closely and distinctly to your heritage and national pride. I think that is great, and I can understand you wanting to further the knowledge your roots and the history of the kilt, but not all of us have that same viewpoint.

[macwilkin]

Now, why should I have to learn about Scotland because I wear a kilt? Even if I were wearing it as a symbol of heritage, I don't see that I must have any knowledge about the history of Scotland to wear it. Anymore than I would need to know the history of the Old West to wear boots and a cowboy hat. As has been stated, it is an article of clothing that happens to be associated with a certain group, like many other articles of clothing. I don't mind the history I pick up while reading this forum, but I do have an issue with it being an "expectation" of me.

By the same token, I do understand that for you, and others, the kilt is tied very closely and distinctly to your heritage and national pride. I think that is great, and I can understand you wanting to further the knowledge your roots and the history of the kilt, but not all of us have that same viewpoint.

Then I feel sorry for you, because you are missing out on the long and storied history of a great people that had a strong influence on America and her history, as well as many other nations.

I can't tell you what to be interested in, or what to read -- I can only do that with my students! ;) -- but I can suggest a few titles! You might want to pick up a copy of "How the Scots Invented the Modern World" by Arthur Herman. You might just find yourself wanting to know more about the contributions of this diaspora people to our nation and to others. "The Mark of the Scots" by Duncan Bruce is also worth looking at. And since you're in Chicago, you might want to check out "The Scots of Chicago, Quiet Immigrants and Their New Society" by Wayne Rethford and June Skinner Sawyers. It is a great book that details the influence of the Scots on the Windy City.

I hope you give them a try. As a history teacher, I always hate to see someone say they have no need to read history, and there's a lot of history behind the kilt.

At the top of my class syllabus each semester, I have the following quote:

History is repeated because no one was listening the first time

Not only is it a warning to my students, but also a warning to us all...

Regards,

Todd

[Raphael]

I don't wear a kilt because it is Scottish. At one point I thought that the kilt was worn historically by the Welsh people, which gave me a tie to it and seemed a reason to wear one. I have since come to believe, primarily because of the information on this board and others, that the idea of Welsh wearing a kilt/cilt, other than fairly recently, is not supported by historical facts.


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How about learning some Welsh History?

[Ranald]

Right then, every now and then a thread on this forum get me thinking and bugs me this is just one and there are issues here that need to be addressed, weather of not I'm qualified to address those or not I couldn't care less.
But, the person that Graham has refered to is me and and I rather dislike being controversial but I'm here and I'm living it, yes here is Scotland.
Now Graham has been over and I'm here as I said and we both have experienced certain attitudes while wearing the kilt, this is a fact, may not be your experience but never the less we are telling you ours.If on the other hand you have something nice a positive to contibute please do so.
Scots do not embrace their culture as we do (kilt ) only on special occasions , It's been said.

I have not once seen a kilt wearer on a normal day wearing said kilt, no sir.Why?

Wearing a kilt in Aberdeen screams 'tourist' it's been said, so is it that the scots simple don't like foreigners?
Why should we have to know anything about Scotlands history to be able to walk done the road/street/mall and not have people sneer at us, kilted of course, why are we treated different because of the kilt , accent ?
Yes there are people that will embrass kilt wearers but unfortunately they in my experience so far are few and far between.

In all my years of being brought up around Scottish folk down in London there's not one I would not give my last penny to if they had needed it.Not one was what I call a horible person.So with that in mind for many years ,We/I moved to Scotland to be with 'my people', people that were like me.!!If only.

[Mike1]

Now, why should I have to learn about Scotland because I wear a kilt?

No reason you should. And, if you read back through what I have said in this thread, you'll see that I admitted that up front.

Even if I were wearing it as a symbol of heritage, I don't see that I must have any knowledge about the history of Scotland to wear it.

There's no contract for you to sign. And it's quite easy to handle the 'educational' posts. Ignore them. As a moderator, I have an obligation to make sure this playing field remains level and the rules are observed. When I get to the posts where a new pair of flashes has been ordered and the individual is wondering what tie matches them the best, my level of interest drops to zero. I scan the post for offensive language and move on. Frankly, I don't care what color flashes anyone owns or what tie they choose to wear with them. <shrug>

But, if you are reading this forum diligently, you will often see people posting from a perceived position of authority on one issue or another. And those posts, often as not contain information that is not necessarily correct.

As Raphael has suggested, how about some informative and educational posts about Wales? There is an area that I know next to nothing about, so what can you share with us?

Or, we can sit around here and talk about nothing more than creases in our pleats. Once we all learn how to steam out the creases, then we can go back to matching our ties to our flashes.

I don't mind the history I pick up while reading this forum, but I do have an issue with it being an "expectation" of me.

The only 'expectation' I have of you is that you behave like a gentleman on this forum. (Which you seem to do well, BTW. ) As I mentioned above, if you should happen to run into a post you don't care for, click right on through it and move on, the same way I do with the "I just ordered a pair of new kilt hose" posts. Easy-peasy, eh? ;)

[Graham]

I'll wade in again and say that as far as "scottish-ness" is concerned, and my relationship to it, I'm most comfortable with the basic principles proposed by New World Celts . To me they encapsulate the issue well.

One of their aims is:
To perpetuate Celtic Culture and history in the New World.

So I see myself as a person with distant celtic origins, now in the new world (Australia in my case), happy here but with a desire to promote and perpetuate celticism through music, celebration, and wearing the kilt.

If folk in Scotland, or anywhere else, don't want to celebrate their heritage, or want to get all exclusive about it, that's their problem.
I won't let it affect my life experience.

Graham -kilt wearing isnt frowned upon in Scotland, honestly.

I did say "often frowned upon", that doesn't mean always and everywhere.
Reactions can be greatly varied, from just being seen as a tourist as Ranald says, to looks of disdain and just being ignored.

Wearing a kilt in a pipe band is of course very accepted, but casual wear, I think much less so.
Really, it's no different here in Australia, and I would guess anywhere else. Attitudes are the same.

and yes, I do know that most famous scots have never probably worn a kilt and wearing a kilt doesn't make you a scot. I would have thought that level of maturity is accepted of those who post on this forum.

The "dissappointment" I expressed is that one would hope that Scotland would be the place where the kilt is more widely accepted in every circumstance than anywhere else.
Sure there are places where that is the case (perhaps Edinburgh for example), but overall...maybe not.

I had no illusions shattered in Scotland, I did my research here and elsewhere and pretty much knew what to expect.

An illustration: you travel to Skye, you know it rains a lot there in summer, you expect it, but it doesn't stop you being dissappointed when it rains the whole time you are there!!
So it is with kiltwearing there.
Beyond all this unnecessarily wordy discussion... I love Scotland, especially the landscape and historical buildings, the churches and cathedrals, and Iona above all.
I can't wait to go back and spend more time there.

[Mike1]

I can't wait to go back and spend more time there.

Well, c'mon then. I leave two weeks from tomorrow, you can go with me. ;)

[GlassMan]

Wearing a kilt in Aberdeen screams 'tourist' it's been said

The important thing about the attitude is that it's a response to the perceived touristy nature of kilt-wearing.

Living in another place known for being a magnet for tourists (Washington DC Metro Area) I can tell you that clothing and behavior that is defined as "tourist-like" is frowned upon as well.

For example, most DC natives avoid the Smithsonian museums like the plague. Why? When I've asked people to go with me the response is usually, "But that's what tourists do."

Another example was once I was visiting a friend in Philadelphia. We went to the art museum and there was a guy posing for a picture on the steps ala "Rocky." My friend commented that it was rare for a native to even go to the museum and that they'd never take such a picture. "Only tourists do that." Of course I then forced her to pose for just such a picture!

It's human nature to want to identify with your subgroup (locals) and not be seen as behaving in a way that characterizes the other (tourists). We're social animals and innocent little instances of group differentiation like that are a part of our every day lives.

So I guess what I'm saying is that the desire to not look like a tourist is probably the most understandable explanation for the low incidence of kilt-wearing in Scotland that I've ever heard.

[auld argonian]

Tourist behaviour....as a Native Chicagoan, I am proud to say that I have never been to the top of the Sears Tower. I have not a few friends who are Native New Yorkers who have, similarly, not been to the top of the Empire State Building or to the Statue of Liberty...I guess that nobody wants to look or act like a tourist.

One of my favorite "tourist" moments was in Amsterdam where I was walking along and a car pulled up to the curb next to me and a guy jumped out and started walking toward me...of course I freaked out a little: even in Chicago this is a situation that could have, shall we say, negative implications. Turns out that this guy was a German tourist who started aksing me directions in what I recognized as very broken Dutch while his wife and kids looked on from the car. I had to explain (well, try to explain) that I was, in fact, not a native of Amsterdam but only a poor, ignorant American who was, himself, a tourist and, being a citizen of the United States, spoke no other language than my own (because EVERYONE speaks English, don't they?) and I couldn't help him. Tourist.

Best

AA