Clan and District tartan history

[GlassMan]

And yet Matt Newsome also says:

Originally, tartan designs had no names, and no symbolic meaning. All tartan cloth was hand woven, and usually supplied locally. While it may have been true that certain colors or pattern motifs were more common in some areas than others, no regulated or defined "clan tartan" system ever existed.

I'm not saying that there was a strictly regulated "clan tartan" system as there is in modern times. But there does seem to be plenty of evidence for a generally practiced system of tartans held to be customary for a particular region.

[Caradoc]

And yet Matt Newsome also says:



I'm not saying that there was a strictly regulated "clan tartan" system as there is in modern times. But there does seem to be plenty of evidence for a generally practiced system of tartans held to be customary for a particular region.

...which isn't surprising at all - even if only for the availability of specific dyes and colors per region.

You think shipping costs and times are bad now? Imagine how it was back then...

[GlassMan]

Exactly. And allow me to very plain about something. I am NOT saying that the current accepted clan tartans are the same ones our ancestors wore in the 16th & 17th centuries. 99.9999999999% of those tartans are certainly the invention of the tartan manufacturers in the 19th century. And even those that try to claim a greater antiquity (such as the attempts by some MacKay historians) have a very difficult time providing proof of such.

However, just because we lost the old regional tartan designs during the days of proscription, doesn't mean that they didn't exist. And what did exist was certainly not a tightly regulated system of tartans registered with the authorities and approved by the Chiefs. Instead it was a customary weave that tended to be worn by inhabitants of a region. And those inhabitants also tended to be related simply because in those days most people didn't not stray far from their place of birth. The modern tendency to move away from the parents is just that, a modern tendency.

Just wanting to make sure that we are both talking about the same concepts and not talking at cross purposes. I'll agree that the modern system did not exist. But I do tend to also believe what evidence shows was a different customary system in the past that lapsed during Proscription.

[GlassMan]

Another very cogent argument for a tendency to wear a common tartan (or at least a tartan with common colors if not thread counts) in a given region is botanical.

All weavers depended very much on local plants for their dyes so the locality of the weaver might well have some bearing on the colours of the tartan that he produced.

[Colin]

Interesting discussion guys, however it was veering way off topic. I did think it deserved it's own thread, so plaese feel free to continue here.

[freddie]

As for the story about the laird of Grant ordering his clansmen to wear the same tartan this was at the time when military uniforms were coming into vogue. Normally a nobleman would kit out his soldiers in blue coats or green coats (they were private armies in those days), but in Scotland of course they had the tartan. As has been said before, if a 'clan tartan' existed why would he have to order them to wear it anyway ?

[starbkjrus]

Shameless Bump! More experts want to wade in??

[GlassMan]

As for the story about the laird of Grant ordering his clansmen to wear the same tartan this was at the time when military uniforms were coming into vogue. Normally a nobleman would kit out his soldiers in blue coats or green coats (they were private armies in those days), but in Scotland of course they had the tartan. As has been said before, if a 'clan tartan' existed why would he have to order them to wear it anyway ?

Possibly because his vassals included members of several clans and so he desired consistency?

[macwilkin]

Possibly because his vassals included members of several clans and so he desired consistency?

I think Freddie's comment about military uniforms coming into vogue is correct.

As an aside, there is still a private army in Scotland today, although it is mostly ceremonial: The Atholl Highlanders, raised by the Chief of the Murrays, the Duke of Atholl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atholl_Highlanders

One of our local Scottish expats used to piper for the Lonach Highlanders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonach_Highlanders

Cheers,

Todd

[macwilkin]

And yet Matt Newsome also says:

I'm not saying that there was a strictly regulated "clan tartan" system as there is in modern times. But there does seem to be plenty of evidence for a generally practiced system of tartans held to be customary for a particular region.

Apples and Oranges now, though...you're confusing a "district tartan" with a "clan tartan".

We're getting our money's worth out of Matt today; from the introduction to his District Tartans web site:

While an individual weaver may have a fondness for a particular motif, and certain tartan patterns may be more fashionable in a given region, nothing remotely like a standardized “clan tartan” system was ever in the minds of the Highland people.

www.district-tartans.com

You quoted Martin Martin's comment, which says: "at the first view of a man's plaid, to guess the place of his residence" --notice that Martin says his residence, not his clan.

Personally, I see no reason to doubt the validity of the idea that there was once long ago a system of regional preference for certain weaves that was lost in time due to the proscription.

Again, apples and oranges. The concept of a "district tartan" is much older than the "clan tartan", but as Matt points out, it was not organized and or structured, not to mention the fact that more than one clan might live in the same district, or that someone with a different surname might align themselves with a larger clan for protection, employment, etc.

The very fact that some Chiefs chose to ask the oldest surviving members of their clans to remember back to the time before Culloden to determine what their clan tartans were suggests that there was at least some idea that a concept like that existed in the misty past and that not all designs were based on the whims of tartan makers.

I believe it was the Chief of the MacDonalds who wrote the Highland Society in 1815 in response to their query about the "clan tartan" of the MacDonalds, "I have no idea what it is, but if you find it, would you please send me a sample?" (paraphrase mine) -- given the fact that the clan system had been broken for a generation, it's no wonder the chiefs had to consult with someone else -- the key is how those older members responded to the inquiry of their Chief, not that the Chief had to ask.

The best anyone should be able to say is that more research is required. With the amount of evidence currently available, I feel it incorrect to state categorically that there was no such system at all until the 19th century.

**EDIT** I agree, much more research needs to be done, and we probably haven't discovered all their is to find about the concept of tartans, but until we have verifiable and documented evidence, it's best to not make statement of fact without them. I agree that the regional or district tartan concept is older than the clan tartan, but even that wasn't uniformly regulated.

I'm a historian and librarian by profession, as well as a Missourian, so you'll have to "show me" before I believe it! :mrgreen:

Again, I'd love to see your source for the story of the "tartan lawsuit", as well as the documentation for the Clan Mackay information -- did the historian provide a bibliography and the works he cited?

Regards,

Todd