The Holy mantra of 8 yard tank, 8 yard tank

[Alan H]

I've written a lot of stuff in the thread entitled "4 or 8 yards" and I just wanted to get this up in its own thread to make a point.

It's as if there was this religion that says that the True Kilt must have 8 yards of material, and anything that has less than 8 yards is somehow "less". A Tank, meaning the Really Excellent and Wonderful Ultimate Kilt will have eight yards of material. Anything less, unless perhaps you're getting a box-pleat kilt, is sort of "not quite as good". Illustration: I was talking to my "other" Clan (Hall family...Border family) West Coast coordinators wife, about my Macnaughton 4-yard kilt and she made a face. I mentioned that yes, this one was pretty light and I wasn't entirely happy with it, but that I was considering making a wool 6-yard kilt. She continued to make a face, and said something about "real kilts always have eight yards". I didn't get into an argument with her, it wasn't the time nor the place, but she's absolutely wrong. Now, her husband is a pretty big guy, so HIS kilt might have eight yards of material in it, but not ALL high-quality "tank" kilts have eight yards oif tartan in them.

I've crunched the numbers many times and now I've made two kilts, with another one started, yesterday afternoon. The truth is that with a sett of 4.5-7 inches, a waistline from 30-40 inches, and 24-28 pleats you can't use up eight yards of material making a kilt unless you deliberately add in more cloth by pleating double setts. There's no actual reason to pleat double setts in medium-to-heavyweight cloth, it's just wasting material. The honest truth is that 6 yards of material is plenty for a kilt that has lots of pleats.

OK...do you want 40 pleats in your kilt? Fine, then you can do it, pay for it, then cut out a third of those four yards of wool that you CRAM into those pleats so that the kilt will actually lie up against the small of your back without bulging out like a tumor. Yeah, you can DO it, but what's the point? The swing is not going to be any different. It's not going to LOOK better. It's a waste.

Who needs a REAL 8+ -yards of material?

If your hip/butt measurement is, say 54 inches or greater, then you can use up 8 yards i fyour tartan has a big sett. My butt measurement is 46-47 and the kilt I made, which has 26 pleats and a 6.5 inch sett was just shy of 7 yards. Take a look.....



Now, look at that picture and tell me that no...no no no 26 pleats just isn't ENOUGH.

If the sett is greater than eight inches and you want lots and lots of pleats, and your hip measurement is greater than 54 inches then you will be able to use up more than eight yards. Big guys need more pleats, no question about it. By my calculations, someone who makes a kilt that has 34 pleats (this is a bloody lot of pleats) , has a 54 inch hip measurement, and a sett that's 8 inches will use up.... nine and half yards of tartan!!!! Do you have any idea how much that thing is going to weigh? Imagine if it was made out of 16 ounce cloth! Think about how unbalanced it's going to be! It'll be four times heavier in the back than it is in the front.

BIG setts and LOTS of pleats eat up tartan. You big guys with tartans that have really big setts, and need a whole lot of pleats can talk about eight and nine yard kilts. The rest of us, the guys with hip measurements from 30-mid-40 inches, with setts in the 6-inch range, and wanting less than 30 pleats (more than 20, less than 30 is just fine, and looks good) should be talking about 6 yard kilts. Not 8 yards....6 yard kilts. Our knife-pleated "Tanks" are going to be 6, maybe 7 yard kilts....not 8 yards. Not only that but in a 6 yard you don't have to cut a third of the tartan out from the middle of your back!

A guy with a hip measurement of 46 (this is my size and I'm a pretty big guy) using a tartan with a 6 inch sett and wanting 26 pleats will use up 6.3 yards of material....just about exactly what went into the kilt you're looking at in that picture up there.

Ease off on the religion of "8 yard tanks". 8 yards of material is for really big guys with tartans that have really big setts. For medium and small sized guys, and tartans with 5-6 inch setts, you're gonna use 6 yards of material for that knife-pleated kilt that has plenty of pleats. You want to use the word "tank" to describe your "killer kilt"? Great...I like it, and use it, too. It's a good term. But let's break the rhetoric and mindset of how it's GOTTA BE 8 yards.

[Alan H]

PS: when you get down to tartan that has 4-inch setts or less, it makes sense to pleat double-setts....that or make LOTS of pleats. Pleating double 4-inch setts will use up essentially the same amount of cloth as pleating tartan that has an 8-inch sett.

[Colin]

I think "8 yards" is just another way of saying you want a full size traditional scottish made kilt. We have all heard that a kilt will sometimes be between 9 and 6 yards depending on the sett, the pleats, your size, and the kiltmaker. I really don't think that most people still think it is anything less that the FULL 8 yards. I myself ordered an 8 yard handsewn traditional 16 oz kilt. Now I have not measured the kilt, so I couldn't really tell you if it is really 7.5 yards or 8.5 yards or anything in between. All I know if given the size, the weight, the construction, the look and the feel, that is it a superior product to anything else I have ever owned in terms of kilts.

I see it as more of a way of differentiating (sp?) that it is not a 4 yard or 5 yard casual kilt.

[Alan H]

I think "8 yards" is just another way of saying you want a full size traditional scottish made kilt. We have all heard that a kilt will sometimes be between 9 and 6 yards depending on the sett, the pleats, your size, and the kiltmaker. I really don't think that most people still think it is anything less that the FULL 8 yards. I myself ordered an 8 yard handsewn traditional 16 oz kilt. Now I have not measured the kilt, so I couldn't really tell you if it is really 7.5 yards or 8.5 yards or anything in between. All I know if given the size, the weight, the construction, the look and the feel, that is it a superior product to anything else I have ever owned in terms of kilts.

I hear ya, Colin...and you might be right.

But I have to say that my Clan leaders wife wasn't hearing anything of it. ALL kilts had to be eight yards, or they just werent right, according to her. It didn't matter if they were 6' 3" and 275 pounds like her husband, or 5' 9" and 140 pounds like a lot of guys I know...

Chalk this rant up to her, though she's a very nice lady.

The thing is, a smaller guy, say with a 30 inch waist and 34 inch hips, may be wearing a fully-constructed, hand-sewn, custom knife-pleated kilt that fits like a dream. It contains fabulous workmanship, and the sett happens to be 4.5 - 5 inches. That guy very well might be wearing 5 yards, or a little bit more of tartan around his hiney, but it's still a first-quality kilt.

[Colin]

I hear ya, Colin...and you might be right.

But I have to say that my Clan leaders wife wasn't hearing anything of it. ALL kilts had to be eight yards, or they just werent right, according to her. It didn't matter if they were 6' 3" and 275 pounds like her husband, or 5' 10" and 160 pounds like Panache...

Chalk this rant up to her, though she's a very nice lady.

That's a lack of education on her part and should just roll off your back.........besides what does she know about ordering a man's kilt? Is she a kiltmaker?

[Alan H]

That's a lack of education on her part and should just roll off your back.........besides what does she know about ordering a man's kilt? Is she a kiltmaker?

Nah, she's not a kiltmaker, just a nice gal with a particular perception. It's just that I see a lot of guys here on X Marks saying the same thing...

I'm saving up for that 8 yard tank". We see it all the time.

I just want to make sure that folks understand that their tank very well may not contains anywhere near 8 yards of tartan. It may be built to last for generations out of frist quality material. It may look GREAT, and may wear like nothing else in the world......but it's likely not to have 8 yards of material in it.

Hey, I'm a scientist by training. I value precision *grin*

[davedove]

That's just another example of knowing not quite enough about the subject. It seems to me that "8 yard kilt" has come to be the description of the full traditional kilt. As you said, we and others in the know, realize that the actual length will actually be more or less that that number, depending on the many factors you describe.

It's likely she heard the term "8 yard kilt" and came to the conclusion that meant that "real" kilts had 8 yards of cloth and never bothered to learn anymore.

[chasem]

I think "8 yards" is just another way of saying you want a full size traditional scottish made kilt . . . I really don't think that most people still think it is anything less that the FULL 8 yards. . .

Well, I certainly think you're right as far as the members of this board are concerned. But there are many people, less educated, and less concerned with being educated, like Alan ran into that firmly believe it's 8 yards or nothing.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

I am sure that Matt will chime in on this at some point, but he described it very well to some folks at the Games this past weekend. One of the (possibly the) oldest kilts known to exist has just over 4 yards of cloth in it. And I mean a philabag/little kilt similar to what we all are wearing for most occasions. I seem to recall it was box pleated as well. The invention of knife pleats and more material being used is a modern invention, i.e. from the 1800's or so.

Nobody jump on me if I have these details wrong, I am going from memory. I will try to find the article on Matt's blog or the museum website as I know he has written an article on this before, it is near the bottom, just before the section on tartans.

The first instance we have of the pleats being sewn in to the phillabeg, creating a true tailored kilt, comes in 1792. This kilt is in possession of the Scottish Tartans Society and is currently on display at the Scottish Tartans Museum of Franklin, NC. It contains 4 yards of tartan, and has wide box pleats that are each sewn in. This is the first garment that can truly be called a kilt in the form we know it today. The tailoring and style are different from a modern kilt, but it is a kilt nonetheless, with its origins in the belted plaid of the late 16th century

Of course, it still won't change the opinion of somebody who is sure they know better than the person wearing the kilt.

[Colin]

Well, I certainly think you're right as far as the members of this board are concerned. But there are many people, less educated, and less concerned with being educated, like Alan ran into that firmly believe it's 8 yards or nothing.

Most reputable kiltmakers should advise you of this when you are ordering, but yes, you are right, there are a lot of less educated people that believe the world is flat and there is no convincing them otherwise. For the record, I believed that yardage mattered (and a lot of other myths I have learned more about since than) when I first started learning about kilts and wearing them.

I will admit I know a lot more about kilts after having read Barb's book. Knowing some of the construction of a kilt really opens your eyes. Not everyone is going to know this, but if they are dealing with a good kiltmaker that is making their product as per someone's measurements and tartan choice, this will likely be explained to them.

As for people "saving up for the 8 yard tank" I think we all know what they mean. If anyone is taking it as a slam against their own kilts because they are not an "8 yard tank" than don't it's likely not meant as such. Respect is a two way street and we all need to practise it a bit more. Someone saving to purchase a traditional Scottish made wool kilt is a good thing and an honor to one's heritage, not a slight to the clothing you choose to wear.