Irish kilt pics, 1905

[michael steinrok]

So do these kilts predate the Royal Irish Regiments wearing their kilts?

[Moosehead]

Michael,

yes, St. Enda's was Pierce's school for boys. These kilts were part of the uniform of the day, though not strictly required. And yes, those who wore them were teased pretty bad, but only by those students who were "Anglicized".

Do they pre-date the Royal Irish? Absolutely, seeing as the RIR were only brought into being in 1992-'93. Do they pre-date the wearing of this particular saffron colour by the predecesors of the RIR? That is the question I'm currently looking into. Is this the "traditional" saffron colour of 500 years ago? No, all evidence points to a brighter, or mustardy yellow colour.

Apparently, the dye used was "cottle", although I haven't a clue what that is.

And, yes, they do have buttons, presumably for braces (suspenders). That, however, is not the magic answer.

Quick edit: just found that the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (who became part of the Royal Irish Rangers in 1968, and thence part of the Royal Irish Regiment in 1993) did not have a Pipe Band, therefore no kilts, prior to 1910. Still checking as to whether the Royal Ulster Rifles and The Royal Irish Fusiliers (who also became Rangers, then part of the RIR) had Pipes prior to 1905. I can say that the Irish Guards did not.

I may have to admit defeat here. It could very well be that the Regiments took the colour from kilts extant in Ireland at the time.

[michael steinrok]

Oh I wouldn't say it was a defeat. Besides I may finally knuckle under and buy one of the bloody things I appreciate your effort.Thanks again.

[Moosehead]

And, I can confirm that the London Irish Rifles did not have a Band until 1906.

Knuckle under Michael, PM me.

I've been the same way, never liked the look because I made the apparent mistake that they were not of truly "Irish" creation. Not sure it would matter, considering the history of the Regiments even prior to them becoming British Regiments.

Guess the mrs. is right, I hate admitting I'm wrong. But...there it is.

[switchblade5984]

Oh I wouldn't say it was a defeat. Besides I may finally knuckle under and buy one of the bloody things I appreciate your effort.Thanks again.

hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa

finally!

THANK YOU MOOSEHEAD!

[An t-Ileach]

I have some brass buttons of the Leinster Regiment. Did the Connaught Rangers have a pipe band before their disbandment in India?

There's another possible angle to some of this:

Much of Irish nationalism draws its culture from the south east as it does its language - the Munster dialect is in effect the standard of Irish. Whereas Donegal and much of Ulster (especially Antrim) speaks more or less the same dialect of Gaelic as the southern Hebrides and Argyll.

Certain of the Islands clans (especially Clan Donald) straddle the North Passage, and it's often easier to get to Northern Ireland than it is to the bigger population centres of Scotland (such as Glasgow, Oban, or Fort William). There's a shared culture here, so could not there have been (say, on the Aran Islands) a Scottish influence (this doesn't have anything to do with plantations, Orangemen, or Ulster Scots/Scots Irish) in the wearing of the kilt and the playing of the pipes?

[Moosehead]

Alan,

those web links helped me a great deal when I first started researching this. Just as the "saffron" leine was worn in both Ireland and Scotland, so too was the colour almost universally described as being a bright or mustardy yellow.

The dye Pearse used is something called 'cottle", although I haven't a clue what it is other than a plant.

There's a shared culture here, so could not there have been (say, on the Aran Islands) a Scottish influence (this doesn't have anything to do with plantations, Orangemen, or Ulster Scots/Scots Irish) in the wearing of the kilt and the playing of the pipes?

Certainly possible. Just remember, the pipes didn't come to Ireland through Scotland, but the other way around.

[prattw]

What's used as a dyestuff is not the windsuckingly expensive spice. The dye is the dried flowers from which the saffron has already been removed. It's available in ethnic groceries locally, about $1.50 or $2.00 for enough to dye a fairly full shirt. I suspect that would make enough to dye 8 yards of wool between $10 and $20.

I have a shirt actually dyed with real saffron flowers in my closet. It's a bright, not unattractive yellow, I'd have called it "canary yellow", but mustard would be a reasonable match. The problem with saffron as a dye is it's not very fast. My shirt has been washed three or four times, now, and is noticeably paler than a couple of small items that haven't been washed. Of course, to be "in period", I really shouldn't be washing it every time it gets sweaty.

Will Pratt

[Pleater]

Many years ago I got flack from ex army for wearing my beret pulled to the left - which is regarded as Irish.

Maybe the reversed pleats are on the same plan - to be the reverse of the British.

[michael steinrok]

Many years ago I got flack from ex army for wearing my beret pulled to the left - which is regarded as Irish.

Maybe the reversed pleats are on the same plan - to be the reverse of the British.

It would be kinda contrary wouldn't it