Kilted Morning Dress

[Scott Gilmore]

Thanks for the information. And I agree with cavscout, nice sporran. Great post.

Thank you,
Scott Gilmore

[Freedomlover]

It seems to me that having reams of rules about exactly what should be worn when is what we are all trying to torpedo. And why is it that someone I've never even met fancies that he/she has some divine right to dictate what is or is not appropriate for a given occassion?

[davedove]

It seems to me that having reams of rules about exactly what should be worn when is what we are all trying to torpedo. And why is it that someone I've never even met fancies that he/she has some divine right to dictate what is or is not appropriate for a given occassion?

These things have been around a while. I think they all started because some upper class people were bored, so they decided to set up these rules to show off how many sets of clothes they had. They do seem to be more formalized in European society too than here in the States.

I will have to say though, that I wouldn't mind seeing a few more people here in the States paying attention to their dress than the current uber-casual look.

If you're going to be in a situation where people notice these things, it is good to know the standards, even if you want to break them.

[Hamish]

I certainly agree that the Prince Charlie and the various forms of doublet are essentially evening dress and should, therefore, not be taken as Morning Dress.

My interpretation of Morning Dress would include a black Crail jacket, worn with a plain (grey/silver?) neck-tie, and the 'dress' accessories otherwise worn in the evening. I would suggest that tartan hose would not really be appropriate. Bearing in mind my aversion to Ghillie brogues, plain black business shoes complete the picture.

This is an old photo, taken six years ago at a friend's wedding (excuse the pose - I cannot help myself when a camera is produced!!!), which shows how I have dressed at numerous weddings whilst other guests around me have worn traditional grey Morning Suits.



Just throwing my oar in!!

[macwilkin]

These things have been around a while. I think they all started because some upper class people were bored, so they decided to set up these rules to show off how many sets of clothes they had. They do seem to be more formalized in European society too than here in the States.

I will have to say though, that I wouldn't mind seeing a few more people here in the States paying attention to their dress than the current uber-casual look.

If you're going to be in a situation where people notice these things, it is good to know the standards, even if you want to break them.

Agreed, Dave. As a traditionalist, I certainly do not believe that standards of proper dress should be "torpedoed"; as you said, if you're going to break them, at least know them and respect those of us who choose not to chuck them oot the windae.

Cheers,

Todd

[Freedomlover]

I will have to say though, that I wouldn't mind seeing a few more people here in the States paying attention to their dress than the current uber-casual look.

I'm with you there, Dave. I happened to stop at the grocery store on the way home from church this afternoon and there was a guy at the meat counter with a rear view smile. That sort of thing is just disgusting. to say the least.

If you're going to be in a situation where people notice these things, it is good to know the standards, even if you want to break them.

I suppose that is right too. But I still see no reason for made up, put on, pretension.

[Scott Gilmore]

...But I still see no reason for made up, put on, pretension.

It isn't necessarily pretense. To some it's an important part of their set of social conventions and values - they find comfort in it. All of us, if we give it thought, disagree with the social values of at least some others. Doesn't make us right or them wrong.

Having said that, I'm not a big fan of exclusionary social events either, but this is kilt forum after all, and the information posted helped me to expand my understanding of how to use my kilt under different circumstances. I don't expect to ever participate in an event like the one described, but I can use the information for comparative purposes.

Thank you,
Scott Gilmore

[Tiran]

Now that I have time to spare, I'll have to take the waistcoat to a tailor and get it adjusted by taking a couple of inches off the bottom to lose the sixth button. And the sleeves of the shirt are too long. Brewin's black hose look OK, though, don't they?

Actually I don't think your shirt sleeves are to long, I think your jacket sleeves are a bit short. Using the standards of a suit, your jacket sleeve should just hit just past the wrist bone, to the top of the fleshy joint at the base of the thumb, with about half an inch of shirt showing. Most kilt stores seem to use a slightly longer sleeve in thier pictures with now shirt showing, but I think this is to accomidate that fact that rentals are never that custom fitted.

[Pour1Malt]

greet info-

ta very much David.


slainte mhath!

[An t-Ileach]

Actually I don't think your shirt sleeves are to long, I think your jacket sleeves are a bit short. Using the standards of a suit, your jacket sleeve should just hit just past the wrist bone, to the top of the fleshy joint at the base of the thumb, with about half an inch of shirt showing. Most kilt stores seem to use a slightly longer sleeve in thier pictures with now shirt showing, but I think this is to accomidate that fact that rentals are never that custom fitted.

I agree with you; but actually the coat sleeves have bunched up a bit in the photo - they actually are getting to be about half an inch shorter than you described (do one's arms get longer with age, I wonder?). The shirt is a cheapo, off-the peg number bought in a hurry from Peter Jones so it's likely to be that that's at fault. Enough about me, really.

James is correct that there wasn't a Highland Dress Morning Dress originally. I think Morning Dress originates in Victorian times, and was the sort of gear gentlemen wore in Town during the early part of the day - probably a bit like the smart suit and so on that one wears to an office meeting with the boss nowadays.

So, if Morning Dress originated in fashionable middle- and upper-class Victorian London, what would the Highland Gentleman have worn in an equivalent environment had Edinburgh been the capital of Scotland then (when he wasn't desperately trying to pass himself off as an Englishman, that is?)?

There seems to be a "rule" that yesterday's working dress ends up as today's smart gear (army "mess kit" was the "combat dress" of the Napoleonic Era; today's Number 1 Dress was the "patrol dress" of the Boer War period; and Number 2 Dress was what people wore in the mud of Flanders in World War I).

So, taking this as a rule-of-thumb, I've always dressed in Morning Dress according to what I think my great-grandfather would have worn. I don't think I've ever worn a grey or silver tie: I did have rather a smart greyish foulard with maroon paisley patterns once when I was much younger that I seem to remember wearing. I've mostly worn regimental, school, or club ties or cravats - we used to have one of those funny coloured Victorian photographs of my ggf wearing something similar. If the moths hadn't got at my trousers, I might have ducked the issue, chickened out, and gone with the familiar.

But they did - and made a merry meal of them, too. So, the kilt, the argyll coat and waistcoat, etc, were the only options. Anyway, as the kilt is rapidly (not fast enough for my liking) evolving into Scottish national dress, and Scotsman are insisting (rightly so) on wearing it in appropriate fashion for all occasions - like Sir Sean Connery and others wearing it to their Investiture at the Palace - I feel that we need to tease out some guidelines: which is why I started these two threads.

I think between us all we've probably got to some sort of answer.