Tartan width? Sett? Repeat? Stripe to Stripe?

[MacWage]

Sett is measured from one stripe to the next matching stripe that begins the repeat. That being said, 3 inches seems very small. Are you sure it is kilt fabric you have and not something with a smaller set designed to be used for a fly plaid, shawl, table cloth, etc.?

And I think that a sett of 5-6 inches is a minimum for a nice looking tartan. With a 1 inch reveal, the pleats would still be 2 inches deep (slightly shallow) and you could make the reveal 3/4" or even a little less to get a deeper pleat.

In such case, most kilt makers use multiple setts. 1.5-3 center to center per pleat.

[MacWage]

What I think sett means:
Using Wallace, because it is so simple and easy to use as demo.

Sett-> black stripe on red to yellow stripe on black

Is that the Sett OR is sett from yellow to yellow? :confused:

What is the repeat on Wallace? :confused:
-Black on red to yellow?
-Yellow to yellow?

When THAT is answered I will be satisfied.

[MacWage]

OK -> None of the experts bit!
I'll go ahead

Using Wallace as the example:

Sett- 1/2 yellow to yellow-> black on red to yellow on black

Repeat-> Sett PLUS the reverse-> What is repeated in full
(This is the stripe to stripe)

Yes, it was the Wallace that I bought (Great-Great Grandmother was a Wallace-> married a Neel and their daughter married a Wilson, whose daughter was my mother).

I was told a 3 inch sett (which it is not) When it was recieved, I though-> "That don't look right!" I measured a 1.5 inch sett and the full repeat of 3 inches.

This particular sett will work in a box pleat of a 3 inch box pleat-> sett for a full repeat. I plan to use 3 repeats to make it work. Not what I would advise, but it is good practice, I have no other use for the fabric, and it will look good in the end. Actually, not to far off historic portraits.

On almost ANY other tartan, this would not work. On all of my other tartan fabrics and ANY Black Watch based pattern (inc. my own MacNeil) it wouldn't be usable! Yet, on Wallace it will.

All readers-> Members and Lurkers:

Beware of the terms used by fabric merchants! The ones that specialize in tartan SHOULD know their correct meaning. Others, however, use them incorrectly at times. Make sure you ASK for a measurement of center stripe to the SAME center stripe accross a FULL repeat.

[HeathBar]

The official sett of a tartan , I guess, would be the recorded thread count with the tartan authorities. A repeat would be from one point in the sett to the exact same point in the next sett (middle of your yellow line to the middle of the next same yellow line. The thread count of the tartan may go something like 10K 5R 10K 5R 2Y 5R 10K 5R 10K. K=Black, R=Red, Y-yellow. The sett begins and ends in black. The yellow strip is in the middle. So a repeat might be the yellow stripe in one sett to the yellow stripe in the next sett, or the fist red stripe in one sett to the first red stripe in the next sett.

The size of the sett would be measured from the first black thread to the last black thread, in the above mentioned ,made-up, tartan. But you should get the same measurement if you measure from the middle of the yellow stripe to the middle of the next yellow stripe. The size of the sett is mostly related to the weight of the fabric. An 11oz tartan will have the same thread count as a 16 oz tartan. But the 11 oz might have a 5 inch sett, while the 16 oz has an 8 inch sett. The difference is that the thread used in the 16 oz material is thicker than the 11 oz thread.

When measuring a sett to determine it size measure along the length of the material not the width. I can't remember which is warp and which is weft. Sometimes setts may not come out as perfect squares. So meaure by the length since that is how you will pleat it.

All of this is explained the Barb T's book, "The Art of Kiltmaking". This is a must read for anyone interested in making a kilt. It is a worthwhile investment.

I hope I have stated everything correctly. It is approaching 1AM.

PS If you do have material that has a 3 inch sett, you can always consider pleating to every other sett. If you pleat to a yellow stripe, pleat every other yellow stripe. You will use twice as much material in the pleats, but your pleats will be twice as deep.

Happy Kilting

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Heath has it right. Using your Wallace as an example, the full sett is:

K4 R32 K32 Y4

This could just as easily be given as Y4 K32 R32 K4. The direction doesn't matter, because either way you do it, the tartan looks the same.

This is the full sett, not the full repeat. One full repeat of the sett would bring you back to your starting point. In this case:

K4 R32 K32 Y4 K32 R32 K4

When tartan merchants give you the sett size, what they are actually giving you is the size of one full repeat of the sett. You get this measurement by measuring from any line in the tartan to that same line in the next sett repeat. It's easier if you use one of the obvious pivots, though, and in this case that means either the narrow black or yellow lines.

On most kilting tartans, the size of the sett will vary from 6" to 9" on average. Some very simple tartans may have a smaller sett repeat (like Rob Roy MacGregor, for instance) in which case you will probably want to incorporate more than one sett in a pleat. Some more complex tartans (like anything based on Black Watch) will have a larger sett repeat, in which case you may need to use less than one full repeat in the sett (I guarantee you that every Gordon kilt pleated to stripe is only pleated to the half sett -- check it out). But I find a 6" to 9" repeat to be average.

Aye,
Matt

[Rex_Tremende]

The thread count of the tartan may go something like 10K 5R 10K 5R 2Y 5R 10K 5R 10K. K=Black, R=Red, Y-yellow. The sett begins and ends in black. The yellow strip is in the middle. So a repeat might be the yellow stripe in one sett to the yellow stripe in the next sett, or the fist red stripe in one sett to the first red stripe in the next sett.

The size of the sett would be measured from the first black thread to the last black thread, in the above mentioned ,made-up, tartan. But you should get the same measurement if you measure from the middle of the yellow stripe to the middle of the next yellow stripe.

Just for fun, I plugged this one in at Tartans Authority's Design Studio.

What confuses me on this is why isn't there a swath of 20K where the pattern reverses itself? To see it better, I swapped out the last black for a violet.

Regards,
Rex in Cincinnati

[M. A. C. Newsome]

What confuses me on this is why isn't there a swath of 20K where the pattern reverses itself?

It's because usually the first and last numbers in the thread counts are meant to be "full pivots," meaning that they are not repeated when the pattern reverses itself.

Almost always today when you see a thread count given a full pivot is meant. However, you cannot always assume this. A lot of errors and variations in tartans have crept in when people misinterpreted whether a particular count gave a full or half pivot.

For a good example, take a look at the "Old Gordon" aka "Gordon of Esselmont" offered by various weavers. This is the Gordon tartan with three yellow lines. Sometimes they will all be equal in width (as they are supposed to be) but in some instances the center yellow line will be twice as wide as the other two, because a count was interpreted as giving a half pivot, so the size of that line was doubled in production.

Aye,
Matt

[arrogcow]

On a side note, I have also played with the Tartan Authority's tartan designer. Is there any way to tell how big a sett will be based on the thread count? Also, Barb once said here that tartans have to have even numbered threads, but TA's site lets you put in odd numbers. If I make a tartan with an odd number can it still be woven?

This is what I have been playing with.


Adam