A question to stump the tartan experts.

[Splash_4]

Gypsies seem to be the last acceptable target for racism.

Not to get too far off topic, but in many ways your are correct. In the countries I have visited (Russia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, etc), Gypsies are routinely set up for harrassment by both the public and the authorities.

However, back to the topic, I think the suggestion of the Capercaillie tartan is the most appropriate!

[macwilkin]

STOP THE PRESSES!

Here is a tartan with a "gypsy connection":

The Meg Merrilees tartan was first produced by William Wilson of Bannockburn in 1829 to celebrate the fictional gypsy character in Sir Walter Scott's novel "Guy Mannering" published in 1815.

-- http://www.merrileesclan.org.nz/tartan.html

or

-- http://www.electricscotland.com/tartans/story4.htm

So there you go.

Cheers,

Todd

[Dreadbelly]

Oh my... A call to Mr Newsome may be in order someday soon.

That is stark raving bee yoo tee ful.

[gilmore]

Dread my friend, this is a stretch to end all stretches. The Russian word "cossack" came from observing the Kazakh nomads in Central Asia, and in Russian was originally used as a reference to serfs who fled to the East of Beyond to live without masters. Originally the word came from a Turkic phrase meaning "free man." Now, if you hie yesel over to www.district-tartans.com and click on tartan finder, then Europe, and then Kazakhstan, you'll see an artifact tartan, in blue and gold and black. It's listed as a Kazakhstan tartan, but that's just because it was found there. Who knows what tribe wove it? From the Kazakh nomads to the Cossacks in one easy step, and playing off the "free man" or "independent spirit" to the gypsy/Roma blood you've got . . . Matt Newsome lists this tartan as available woven to order, and I know someone who'd be willing to go in with you on the order. In fact, I actually AM someone who'd be willing to go in with you on the order.

However, I have also heard that the gypsies originated in India (allegedly proven through linguistic regression . . . ). Could a madras print possibly be appropriate?

Just throwing out ideas, amigo!

But weren't Cossack troops used by the Tsars and others to persecute/exterminate Gypsies and Jews during the progroms?

[gilmore]

STOP THE PRESSES!

Here is a tartan with a "gypsy connection":

The Meg Merrilees tartan was first produced by William Wilson of Bannockburn in 1829 to celebrate the fictional gypsy character in Sir Walter Scott's novel "Guy Mannering" published in 1815.

-- http://www.merrileesclan.org.nz/tartan.html

or

-- http://www.electricscotland.com/tartans/story4.htm

So there you go.

Cheers,

Todd

Hmmm....a tartan invented by a mill owner to celebrate a fictional character that was, most likely, a far cry from anything gypsies were actually like in the period portrayed. I wonder if an actual gypsy has ever even seen it.

But then maybe I am missing the point, which seems to be mill owners and kilt merchants making money off of people so deparate to claim some kind of heritage that they will swallow most anything.

[Dreadbelly]

Hmmm....a tartan invented by a mill owner to celebrate a fictional character that was, most likely, a far cry from anything gypsies were actually like in the period portrayed. I wonder if an actual gypsy has ever even seen it.

But then maybe I am missing the point, which seems to be mill owners and kilt merchants making money off of people so deparate to claim some kind of heritage that they will swallow most anything.

A: It is pretty looking.

B: It is a start. Some times, it really is the thought that counts.

C: If you have something better to offer, please, by all means, post up! Otherwise, why bash?

[macwilkin]

Hmmm....a tartan invented by a mill owner to celebrate a fictional character that was, most likely, a far cry from anything gypsies were actually like in the period portrayed. I wonder if an actual gypsy has ever even seen it.

But then maybe I am missing the point, which seems to be mill owners and kilt merchants making money off of people so deparate to claim some kind of heritage that they will swallow most anything.

Methinks you are reading far too much into this, gilmore. Dreadbelly wanted a tartan with a gypsy connection, and this one had it, albiet a fictional one. And besides, Sir Walter was just as much as anyone "to blame" for many tartan myths, so why not chuckle at the irony of his connection to this supposed "gypsy" tartan instead of getting upset?

T.

[gilmore]

There is another thought. Why not research what gypsies and other Travellers wear today in Scotland? Or, if they are not usually kilted (and it is very likely that they are not, if ever), you could research back in time until you come across tartans, kilts or other distinctive dress that they wore---probably a couple of hundred years--- that appeals to you.

The Travellers' culture is still alive and well in Britain. I have a friend whose mother grew up in it as a child. She speaks Rom fluently, and he knows a bit of it himself.

You see, the idea of clan tartans as we understand it didn't come about until long after the clan system had vanished, and long after its successor, feudalism, had also vanished. It was for the most part invented by mill owners, cloth merchants, tailors and others in order to make money off the vanity of the newly affluent bourgeoisie enriched by the industrial revolution in the early to mid 19th century.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Hmmm....a tartan invented by a mill owner to celebrate a fictional character that was, most likely, a far cry from anything gypsies were actually like in the period portrayed. I wonder if an actual gypsy has ever even seen it.

But then maybe I am missing the point, which seems to be mill owners and kilt merchants making money off of people so deparate to claim some kind of heritage that they will swallow most anything.

Was the person at Wilsons who designed and promoted this tartan trying to make money for the woolen mill? Certainly yes, that was his job -- just like the people who design new tartans today for Lochcarron, House of Edgar, Strathmore, Marton Mills, and all the rest. You wouldn't have any tartan cloth to wear if they did not.

Was the person who designed the Merilees tartan trying to pass this off as an authentic "gypsy" tartan that hearken back to the anscetral roots of the gypsies and that anyone with gypsy descent should wear it? I see nothing to suggest that. It seems they were just trying to tie into a popular novel. There have been tartans designed today to spin off of popular movies and TV shows. It's the same thing.

If you are looking for companies trying to make a buck off of people by passing off a false heritage, try the Welsh Tartan Center -- they completely invented the idea of Welsh families having tartans, and invented all the tartans as well. I wonder how many people buying from them realize that the Welsh never wore kilts or had family tartans?

My point is that while some of what you complain about does go on, I think you are directing your angst in the wrong direction.

[ccga3359]

Wow interesting thread, Dread! I'm curious did the League of Nations have a tartan or certain colours? My paternal Grandmother was a gypsy, born ia a caravan of no fixed abode. These caravans were very ornately coloured perhaps something along those lines?