Women in Kilts?

[Barry]

Instead of just saying she shouldn't because it's a man's garment or saying she should because it's a free world, I'm trying to reason. Because to tell the truth, she really hasn't given me a real reason why.

Women don't need to give a reason.

This thread has been quite enlightening; logic, opinion, "facts". fors and againsts. But no-one seems to have mentioned the real arbiter here: Society's current view of male/female clothing. IMHO the situation in the West is that women can and do wear any garment, wether intended for them or no. Men, on the other hand are expected to wear, and generally do, clothes of a fairly narrow range which other men are also wearing i.e blokes stuff. Whereas the females are applauded or ignored when they wear man's clothes, any man daring to wear anything remotly "feminine" is immediately branded as gay or a cross dresser or a pervert.
Now I'm not saying that any of this is right or wrong. The British Prime Minister is on record as saying that no-one should tell another how to dress. I'm just trying to explain what I see as the status quo.

So, our good lady that started this little ball rolling may, can, and will wear a man's kilt and we chaps will still face unenlightened comment from "real men" when we are in our kilts and cilts. A "free world"? Not is this England it isn't.

I think this thread has run it course and should now be put to bed. It really has been great to read all the input and with such gentlemanly retraint present.

Lang may yer lum reek!

[McClef]

I just got the DVD of Yentl, in my view Streisand's best film.

At the end when she reveals her true gender she gets the "not wearing that which appertaineth to a man" bit. This quote has been bandied around in many contexts (and usually without reference to the original one) and still exists in the unconcious mind of some.

It's even been used against men in kilts!

There is also a lot of snobbery about what is "correct" and about "entitlements" which members of this forum do their best to dispel. This discussion shows that there are variances in views which have been given with restraint and respect.

Fashions and ideas of dress evolve all the time, I don't think we can claim an exemption from that for the kilt. If it evolves into a "unisex" garment then sobeit if it increases its popularity, toleration and use. That doesn't mean that all the accessories would automatically be unisex although I did see a lesbian at a ceilidh in full Highland fig and she looked better than some of the men did!

[mddock58]

As far as any of this goes, I really don't care!

But I would rather see a lady wear ANY skirt, kilt or otherwise, than jeans.

But that's just my preference!

[Mike1]

That doesn't mean that all the accessories would automatically be unisex although I did see a lesbian at a ceilidh in full Highland fig and she looked better than some of the men did!

Let's not start discussing lifestyle choices of those wearing kilts, that is not in the spirit of this thread or in the spirit of the forum policies.

[McClef]

I apologise if I have offended, it was not meant in that way, only to be illustrative.

[cavscout]

To compare women wearing kilts to having a "right" to wear a kilt is going a bit overboard. If you want to wear one, wear one. There's no need to make a civil liberty's case out of this topic. And absolutely, I don't want to see the kilt caught up in a civic or social revolution that would compromise the heritage that most of us value (heritage of Scottish revolution aside).

Also, women wearing kilts does nothing to further the cause of men wearing kilts. Thanks anyway Maddona.

We all have our own reasons for wanting to wear the kilt. The fact that we ourselves can hardly define what is and isn't a kilt by any standard is proof enough that it is a futile debate.

Most people, including those among us, will see a person wearing a tartan skirt and look at it in appreciation. It will be the overall appearance that tells us initially if it is a kilt or kilted skirt. Whether the person is dressing to give a feminine appearance or a masculine appearance will be our first impression of if it is a kilt or kilted skirt.

It's not accurate to think women will choose a kilt because of the comfort it provides because the comfort a kilt provides men is irrelevant to women. Women currently have unlimited options for loose fitting skirts that look fantastic on them, many of them in plaids. Kilt or not, Women will still squat and kneel with their legs together, men will not. They will still wear clothes that accentuate their figures, kilt or not.

The choice for a women to wear a kilt(ed-skirt) is beyond the realm of the things I control in my domain But I know the impression the wearer presents to the viewer is what will make the final determination as to whether it is a kilt or kilted skirt.

[Nanook]

At the end when she reveals her true gender she gets the "not wearing that which appertaineth to a man" bit. This quote has been bandied around in many contexts (and usually without reference to the original one) and still exists in the unconcious mind of some.

The Halacha (or commandents) is question is the prohibition of not wearing gender specific clothing of the corresponding type.

“A man’s clothes should not be on a woman, and a man should not wear the apparel of a woman; for anyone who does these things, it is an abomination before G-d.”

לא־יִהְיֶה כְלִי־גֶבֶר עַל־אִשָּה וְלא־יִלְבַּשׁ גֶּבֶר שִׂמְלַת אִשָּה כִּי תועֲבַת ה׳ אֱלהֶיךָ
כָּל־עשֵׂה אֵלֶּה

The men's items are not pants but tsitsit and tefillin. Yentl was clearly guilty on all counts.

The question is why? There is a relatively large literature on this passage. The general consensus of commentary is that the prohibition is about the will to deception (Yentl again) to commit sin (the sparing moment for Yentl). Rashi, for example, saw the deception as the will to adultery (" this is only for the purpose of adultery." and "So he can go and be among the women.").

Alone the observation that someone might suggest that a man in kilt is a man in a skirt is an exclusion to this prohibition since it is hardly a deception. A big hairy guy with a beard is a dress (such as a late "Coco Vega" who was a fixture of the late 1970s and early 1980s San Francisco party scene) might look like a wack but hardly a gender deceiver. It only crosses the line when there is an intent (conscious will or desire) to misrepresent gender to violate other laws.

What is "gender specific" is defined by local custom. Its application among Charedi (conservative Orthodox in contrast to "Modern Orthodox" Jews) is to forbid women from wearing pants or only (under specific conditions) under a skirt that is clearly identifiable as and accepted in the local area as a women's skirt.

[Mike1]

OK, now we're taking a religious slant and that dog ain't gonna hunt. Maybe we've run the gamut with this one, I don't know.

Let's move things back to safe ground and see how it progresses.

[cloves]

I've asked a couple kiltmakers on the board here about kilts with a reverse apron (not just cause I'm female, but also because I'm a leftie) and both of them said they couldn't.

who makes a knee length kilted skirt? I've only seen the "too long" and "too short" variety offered.

[Nanook]

I've asked a couple kiltmakers on the board here about kilts with a reverse apron (not just cause I'm female, but also because I'm a leftie) and both of them said they couldn't.

I suspect that they don't want to bother. There are a lot of excellent small kiltmakers around that I'm sure would love to fill your order.

who makes a knee length kilted skirt? I've only seen the "too long" and "too short" variety offered.

Well.. The kilted skirt ("Kilted Skirt in Worsted") from Kinloch Anderson which I posted a picture of comes off the peg in lengths from "mini" to "maxi" with "short", "regular", "over knee", "midi" and "mid calf" in between. My wife's short is more or less (well a little bit more) knee length. They are hemmed so you could make them a bit shorter. The fabrics and workmanship are really quite good. They all close, however, at the right and use velcro on the inner left like their men's Breacan (instead of straps).