Women in Kilts?

[Nanook]

At the end when she reveals her true gender she gets the "not wearing that which appertaineth to a man" bit. This quote has been bandied around in many contexts (and usually without reference to the original one) and still exists in the unconcious mind of some.

The Halacha (or commandents) is question is the prohibition of not wearing gender specific clothing of the corresponding type.

“A man’s clothes should not be on a woman, and a man should not wear the apparel of a woman; for anyone who does these things, it is an abomination before G-d.”

לא־יִהְיֶה כְלִי־גֶבֶר עַל־אִשָּה וְלא־יִלְבַּשׁ גֶּבֶר שִׂמְלַת אִשָּה כִּי תועֲבַת ה׳ אֱלהֶיךָ
כָּל־עשֵׂה אֵלֶּה

The men's items are not pants but tsitsit and tefillin. Yentl was clearly guilty on all counts.

The question is why? There is a relatively large literature on this passage. The general consensus of commentary is that the prohibition is about the will to deception (Yentl again) to commit sin (the sparing moment for Yentl). Rashi, for example, saw the deception as the will to adultery (" this is only for the purpose of adultery." and "So he can go and be among the women.").

Alone the observation that someone might suggest that a man in kilt is a man in a skirt is an exclusion to this prohibition since it is hardly a deception. A big hairy guy with a beard is a dress (such as a late "Coco Vega" who was a fixture of the late 1970s and early 1980s San Francisco party scene) might look like a wack but hardly a gender deceiver. It only crosses the line when there is an intent (conscious will or desire) to misrepresent gender to violate other laws.

What is "gender specific" is defined by local custom. Its application among Charedi (conservative Orthodox in contrast to "Modern Orthodox" Jews) is to forbid women from wearing pants or only (under specific conditions) under a skirt that is clearly identifiable as and accepted in the local area as a women's skirt.

[Mike1]

OK, now we're taking a religious slant and that dog ain't gonna hunt. Maybe we've run the gamut with this one, I don't know.

Let's move things back to safe ground and see how it progresses.

[cloves]

I've asked a couple kiltmakers on the board here about kilts with a reverse apron (not just cause I'm female, but also because I'm a leftie) and both of them said they couldn't.

who makes a knee length kilted skirt? I've only seen the "too long" and "too short" variety offered.

[Nanook]

I've asked a couple kiltmakers on the board here about kilts with a reverse apron (not just cause I'm female, but also because I'm a leftie) and both of them said they couldn't.

I suspect that they don't want to bother. There are a lot of excellent small kiltmakers around that I'm sure would love to fill your order.

who makes a knee length kilted skirt? I've only seen the "too long" and "too short" variety offered.

Well.. The kilted skirt ("Kilted Skirt in Worsted") from Kinloch Anderson which I posted a picture of comes off the peg in lengths from "mini" to "maxi" with "short", "regular", "over knee", "midi" and "mid calf" in between. My wife's short is more or less (well a little bit more) knee length. They are hemmed so you could make them a bit shorter. The fabrics and workmanship are really quite good. They all close, however, at the right and use velcro on the inner left like their men's Breacan (instead of straps).

[arrogcow]

I've asked a couple kiltmakers on the board here about kilts with a reverse apron (not just cause I'm female, but also because I'm a leftie) and both of them said they couldn't.

who makes a knee length kilted skirt? I've only seen the "too long" and "too short" variety offered.

UK actually did a run of left handed kilts a couple of years ago.

Adam

[Monkey@Arms]

UK actually did a run of left handed kilts a couple of years ago.

Adam

Interesting. It should be noted that UK is adamant about marketing its kilts as a man's garment, not a unisex one, and while of course they'll gladly sell one to anyone, they quite openly tell women that wearing a UK is "cross dressing."

Best regards,

Jake

[arrogcow]

Interesting. It should be noted that UK is adamant about marketing its kilts as a man's garment, not a unisex one, and while of course they'll gladly sell one to anyone, they quite openly tell women that wearing a UK is "cross dressing."

Best regards,

Jake

They weren't marketed to women. Several left handed customers requested and left handed workman's and they tried it.

Adam

[KiltedKnight]

When I first found this site I was pleased at what it was then and I tried to follow the rules that the site is run by but it seems that as time goes by political correctness outweighs the rules in a lot of places.

Now I understand that the mods allow many things to pass to see how they'll fly and if a post doesn't raise too many peoples ire they allow it to stand, no problem, but after reading some posts where some here have made it perfectly clear that they are homosexual there was no mention of stepping out of bounds or "not discussing lifestyle choices" and when someone protested that the government hadn't approved a certain bill giving marriage 'rights' to individuals who practice alternative lifestyles there was no mention of discussing politics from the mods when there was no reason to bring politics up on the board in any discussion that didn't have to do with laws pertaining to the kilt.

In truth I don't want anyone discussing my lifestyle and I don't want to hear about anyone elses either.

I have always stood on my own two feet and have worn the kilt with pride and not "casual" with sweatshirts or tee shirts or the like, if someone does that's entirely up to them but I don't have to be happy knowing that they "don't care" about how it affects tradition, and yes, I know all about 'back in the day' when the Scots wore the kilt in any way they chose but today the kilt is Highland Attire and not "casual" unless at the games.

I see many here that are very excited about wearing the kilt with the same fervor as someone who just discovered religion and wants to share it with everyone else but as we all know, until that new convert gets used to the idea and calms down they can be quite a pain to have around. There's nothing at all wrong with having that kind of passion but most think that they have to get everyone into kilts to be accepted themselves but I have not found that to be so. I have never had a problem that I couldn't handle being at a function kilted.

I have worn the kilt for many years and yes, we all know that there are some that aren't very sure of their sexuality and will try and poke fun at us for wearing the kilt but they only make fools of themselves in front of the other folks around us and we compound their foolishness by ignoring them or shutting them down with a great comeback that fits the moment.

That being said, I don't want everyone in kilts, I want to stand out as a man among men and be the only one at a banquet or on an ocean cruise wearing a kilt. If there are others there I will be happy to have them as long as they are not embarrassing the tradition.

Lately, Xmarks has been populated by many who "don't care" and have no use for tradition and those of us who want to learn what's proper and not what someone else is doing only to 'get in the face' of society are supposed to sit back and not protest because it's not PC. I doubt the mods want Xmarks to be known on the net as a site where you have to watch what you say or your post will be removed if it isn't considered politically correct.

I hate to say this but I'm afraid that in a year or two Xmarks will be indiscernible from sites like Tom's Cafe if this goes on with anyone wearing anything that they want to wear.

If you follow this to it's logical conclusion once women are accepted as wearing mens kilts then someone will proest because they should be allowed to discuss wearing women's skirts and so on. And it will happen.

Intelligent disagreement should not be shut down because it goes against political correctness or might hurt someone's self esteem because they don't agree with the way things have been for hundereds of years before they were born.

Chris.

[Panache]

I have a grand idea. It appears that this thread has run its course. Let the last post on this thread be SnakeEye's. As he started it, it might be nice to get his thoughts on all our various opinions. This can then stand as an illustration that we on X Marks can have interesting discussions without them always being shut down by the moderators.

So if all are in agreement, SnakeEyes it's time to close up the bar.

Last Call

[cavscout]

Chris,

I may be missing your issue but, if you look back up thru the thread and you'll see that Mike has injected a few corrective measures on the points you mention to help keep this thread alive.