Chain mail

[Caradoc]

I'd be real curious to see what happens to the copper mail over time. I would assume it patinas and eventually takes on the green tints.

Somewhat. One of the paradoxes of mail is that the more you wear it, the less it patinas because the links rub against each other and literally polish each other.

The medieval method of cleaning mail was to put it in a burlap or canvas bag with some clean straw and hand it to the squires to play "medicine ball" with it. The pounding as it was thrown from hand to hand cleaned the links off as they rubbed together.

The other method, which I've used to great results, is to put the mail into a barrel with some clean straw and a handful or two of sand, and roll it down a nice slope.

Copper's fun to play with, but any large expanse of it will pull the links open under their own weight unless you're using obscenely large gauges of wire. Mild steel will do the same thing if there's enough mail in one piece.

[BLAZN]

Do the renaissance fair types really pay well for chainmail? Do they buy it in premeasured lengths or in things like clothing, etc.?
Just curious

I watched a guy make some ornamental head dresses and a coif... the head dresses were going for $75 a pop with MAYBE 200 or 300 rings in them. I dunno what he wanted for the coif.

What are the stats???

looks nice, bit loose, but nice.

Umm... the rings are made from 14awg solid copper. I personally stripped the copper, coiled it up and cut the rings with a pair of tin snips. I've gotten the rings as closed as I can.

Thanks.

Found this site.

Exactly what I need to do... join another forum. lol

cwr89 is right we've hijacked this thread long enough let's give it back to BLAZN, he's earned it with his wonderful work. Sorry BLAZN.

No biggy.

Somewhat. One of the paradoxes of mail is that the more you wear it, the less it patinas because the links rub against each other and literally polish each other.

I've heard that and I had actually counted on it to keep my copper, copper. Though, maybe a little bit of tarnish would look nice. I wouldn't want to be wearing the Statue of Liberty on my head, though.

Copper's fun to play with, but any large expanse of it will pull the links open under their own weight unless you're using obscenely large gauges of wire. Mild steel will do the same thing if there's enough mail in one piece.

14awg is fairly stiff stuff, as I'm sure you know.
The strip I made will likely be absorbed into the coif I have started. I'm debating whether I want to do a coif with a full mantle or not.

[Caradoc]

14awg is fairly stiff stuff, as I'm sure you know.
The strip I made will likely be absorbed into the coif I have started. I'm debating whether I want to do a coif with a full mantle or not.

14ga copper isn't *bad*, but if you made a full-length byrnie or hauberk of the stuff, the shoulder links would very likely pull themselves apart - especially if the wearer was doing anything like live steel combat work.

I was doing most of the "decorative" links in my mail with silicon bronze welding rod - 16ga and 14ga to match the case-hardened steel link gauges.

I'd finish a piece, then take it over to a buddy of mine, toss the mail into his heat-treating kiln, bring it up to temperature to burn off the zinc from the steel (galvanized steel is a PITA - it gets white and fuzzy after a bit) and drop it directly from the zinc burn-off temperature into a bucket of cold used crankcase oil. It helped harden the links up a bit.

Don't try that at home, BTW. Zinc fumes == ickiness. Hence the use of an outdoor kiln that already had a ventilation system.

I played with riveting my mail for a while. That was tedious and nasty. I was chiseling the rivets from a strip of metal to make little tiny wedges, and they'd occasionally go interesting places as they flew off the end of the strip.

Yes, I wore goggles for that. Goggles don't cover your nose. I replaced the goggles with a full-face shield after getting a wee sliver of steel stuck just inside my nostril, which hurt rather a lot.

And since it was stainless steel, it wasn't magnetic. So it was a bit harder to pull out...

[Sorcha Griannon]

And since it was stainless steel, it wasn't magnetic. So it was a bit harder to pull out...

All I can say is, OUCH. Full mask time, definately full mask time...


Sorcha

[RK-REX]

used crankcase oil. It helped harden the links up a bit.

If you want them a bit harder, use 80/90 weight oil. It's for front and rear car/truck differentials rather than a floating bearing system and it contains much more sulfur and something else I can't remember exactly right now. When I was serving my tool and diemaker apprenticeship, we hardened a lot of stuff this way.

Also check out http://www.brownells.com/ I did a bit of custom gun work for a spell and they have a product called tough-quench that works really well too. They have lots of neat hard to find tools as well.

Look around to some of the gunsmithing sites and you can find out how to heat treat your material for color as well as hardness.

[cwr89]

I'd finish a piece, then take it over to a buddy of mine, toss the mail into his heat-treating kiln, bring it up to temperature to burn off the zinc from the steel (galvanized steel is a PITA - it gets white and fuzzy after a bit) and drop it directly from the zinc burn-off temperature into a bucket of cold used crankcase oil. It helped harden the links up a bit.

Don't try that at home, BTW. Zinc fumes == ickiness. Hence the use of an outdoor kiln that already had a ventilation system.

I know you see that galvy is not the greatest for health. I primarily use galvy for it's ease to aquire and it's cost. I don't normally yell at people on forums, but NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER DO THAT AGAIN. if you want to live.

check this out for the reason to my yelling: (I can't get the pictures but if you want to you can check it out on www.anvilfire.com in the Iforge section under Saftey Demo III)

This is the second safety demo by Jim "Paw-Paw" Wilson based on real life events. Sadly this will be his last. We are presenting it the way he would have wanted.


Paw-Paw 1940 - 2005 Well folks. This is a hell of a way to do a demo. I did something stupid that I knew better than to do, thinking I was tougher than a little smoke. Well, I miscalculated and now I am dead.

My friends will have to finish this for me. . .

Sheri, I love you. Please forgive me.


Figure 1 We will never know what Jim was thinking that day. He was probably just trying to get a job done the quickest easiest way he knew how.

The parts to the right were 2.5" galvanized pipe. They were to be welded up as part of a stock rack we think. To weld them they needed the galvanizing removed.

Jim burned off the zinc in his gas forge.


Figure 2 Burning zinc looks similar to burning magnesium. It flares off white zinc oxide smoke and leaves heavy soot like yellow and white oxide deposits where the smoke cools. In the metal working shop we are often exposed to small amounts of zinc smoke without ill effect. It is common in brazing, casting brass and ocassionally welding.

However this was not a small amount of zinc smoke. It was thick enough in his well ventilated shop that Jim wisely sent his helpers outside. Why he stayed we will never know.


Figure 3 There was so much zinc that it reacted with the refractory lining causing the ITC-100 coating to flake off. Around the door gasket area there were 1/16" thick deposits of zinc oxide. There is no question that Jim was exposed to significant amounts of zinc oxide smoke as he removed the flaming parts from the forge and quenched them.

Two weeks later when the forge was fired up it was still generating zinc smoke and fumes.

JOCK
D After this event Paw-Paw was very ill for a couple days. He thought he was over it and went on a road trip. A week after the exposure he came down with double pneumonia and had to be brought home. A week later he was dead.

Prior to this Paw-Paw had problems with emphysema and this is a factor in his case. However, metal fume fever can kill the young and healthy or leave lasting effects.

I will say, I have a ring cutting maching that I used to use to saw cut my coils on a drill-press. until I got it too hot, (ran out of the tap oil drip) and I can tell you first hand that gavlinazation poisoning is very very terrible. its funny I actually had to tell the doctor at the urgent care that I have been exposed to heavy metal fumes, and unfortunately they don't like coming out once they're in.

so be careful. I hate to see things like what happened to PAW-PAW happen.


Caradoc, sounds like you had a whole ring rig. good to hear.

BLAZN, how does one open and close 14g copper with fingers??? thats crazy, I made a fountain curtain from 14awg 3/8th ID rings, and I would never have done it by hand.

once again sorry for the theft.
~Casey

[Caradoc]

I know you see that galvy is not the greatest for health. I primarily use galvy for it's ease to aquire and it's cost. I don't normally yell at people on forums, but NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER DO THAT AGAIN. if you want to live.

Yeah. I've read Paw-Paw's story.

However, at the time I was doing the mail, I already knew that zinc offgassing is *bad*.

That'd be why we did the heating to burn-off in a heat-treating kiln primarily used for bladesmithing that contained a scrubbing system in its ventilation.

The guy who built it uses it for historical reproduction works involving hazardous materials, including mercury, arsenic, antimony, and other nasties. It works very well for heating things that you really don't want to breathe (negatively pressuring a kiln is an interesting exercise to say the least.)

[cwr89]

Yeah. I've read Paw-Paw's story.

However, at the time I was doing the mail, I already knew that zinc offgassing is *bad*.

That'd be why we did the heating to burn-off in a heat-treating kiln primarily used for bladesmithing that contained a scrubbing system in its ventilation.

The guy who built it uses it for historical reproduction works involving hazardous materials, including mercury, arsenic, antimony, and other nasties. It works very well for heating things that you really don't want to breathe (negatively pressuring a kiln is an interesting exercise to say the least.)

thats one sweet sounding kiln!!! well, in that cercumstance, I guess it was ok. don't feel bad, I've done some very dumb things myself, (about a month ago, I was trying to cast some ingots out of lead... in my basement. . so, I've had a fair share of heavy metal exposure. and worst of all... I am only 17. (I would say that general assumptions about teenagers being a bit on the slow side are true. ;) )

~Casey

[Weasel Mender]

Caradoc and others
Be VERYcareful burning off galvanizing of metal , zinc fumes don't just==ickiness they can ==death!!!! on the anvilfire website we lost a valuable friend in Jim"PawPaw" Wilson to zinc poisining so please be careful and useHUGEamounts of ventilation when burning off galvanizing i am discovering many new frinds here and don't want to say goodbye to any of you like I did JimI didn't see the earlier post with the quote from Anvilfire so this is just to pound the point home