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  1. #1
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    NYT: English, Irish, Scots: They’re All One, Genes Suggest

    From the March 5, 2007 New York Times


    English, Irish, Scots: They’re All One, Genes Suggest
    By NICHOLAS WADE


    Britain and Ireland are so thoroughly divided in their histories that there is no single word to refer to the inhabitants of both islands. Historians teach that they are mostly descended from different peoples: the Irish from the Celts, and the English from the Anglo-Saxons who invaded from northern Europe and drove the Celts to the country’s western and northern fringes.

    But geneticists who have tested DNA throughout the British Isles are edging toward a different conclusion. Many are struck by the overall genetic similarities, leading some to claim that both Britain and Ireland have been inhabited for thousands of years by a single people that have remained in the majority, with only minor additions from later invaders like Celts, Romans, Angles , Saxons, Vikings and Normans.

    The implication that the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh have a great deal in common with each other, at least from the geneticist’s point of view, seems likely to please no one.

    The genetic evidence is still under development, however, and because only very rough dates can be derived from it, it is hard to weave evidence from DNA, archaeology, history and linguistics into a coherent picture of British and Irish origins.

    That has not stopped the attempt. Stephen Oppenheimer, a medical geneticist at the University of Oxford, says the historians’ account is wrong in almost every detail. In Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque.

    The British Isles were unpopulated then, wiped clean of people by glaciers that had smothered northern Europe for about 4,000 years and forced the former inhabitants into southern refuges in Spain and Italy. When the climate warmed and the glaciers retreated, people moved back north.

    The new arrivals in the British Isles would have found an empty territory, which they could have reached just by walking along the Atlantic coastline, since there were still land bridges then across what are now English Channel and the Irish Sea.

    This new population, who lived by hunting and gathering, survived a sharp cold spell called the Younger Dryas that lasted from 12,300 to 11,000 years ago. Much later, some 6,000 years ago, agriculture finally reached the British Isles from its birthplace in the Near East.

    Agriculture may have been introduced by people speaking Celtic, in Dr. Oppenheimer’s view. Although the Celtic immigrants may have been few in number, they spread their farming techniques and their language throughout Ireland and the western coast of Britain. Later immigrants arrived from northern Europe had more influence on the eastern and southern coasts. They too spread their language, a branch of German, but these invaders’ numbers were also small compared with the local population.

    In all, about three-quarters of the ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, when rising sea levels finally divided Britain and Ireland from the Continent and from one another, Dr. Oppenheimer calculates in a new book, “The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story” (Carroll & Graf, 2006).

    * * * snip * * *

    A different view of the Anglo-Saxon invasions has been developed by Mark Thomas of University College, London. Dr. Thomas and colleagues say the invaders wiped out substantial numbers of the indigenous population, replacing 50 percent to 100 percent of those in central England.

    Their argument is that the Y chromosomes of English men seem identical to those of people in Norway and the Friesland area of the Netherlands, two regions from which the invaders may have originated.

    Dr. Oppenheimer disputes this, saying the similarity between the English and northern European Y chromosomes arises because both regions were repopulated by people from the Iberian refuges after the glaciers retreated.

    Dr. Sykes said he agreed with Dr. Oppenheimer on this point, but another geneticist, Christopher Tyler-Smith of the Sanger Centre near Cambridge, said the jury was still out. “There is not yet a consensus view among geneticists, so the genetic story may well change,” he said. As to the identity of the first postglacial settlers, Dr. Tyler-Smith said he “would favor a Neolithic origin for the Y chromosomes, although the evidence is still quite sketchy.”

    Dr. Oppenheimer’s population history of the British Isles relies not only on genetic data but also on the dating of language changes by methods developed by geneticists. These are not generally accepted by historical linguists, who long ago developed but largely rejected a dating method known as glottochronology.

    Geneticists have recently plunged into the field, arguing that linguists have been too pessimistic and that advanced statistical methods developed for dating genes can also be applied to languages.

    Dr. Oppenheimer has relied on work by Peter Forster, a geneticist at Anglia Ruskin University, to argue that Celtic is a much more ancient language than supposed, and that Celtic speakers could have brought knowledge of agriculture to Ireland, where it first appeared. He also adopts Dr. Forster’s argument, based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, that English is an ancient, fourth branch of the Germanic language tree, and was spoken in England before the Roman invasion.

    * * * snip * * *

    Historians have usually assumed that Celtic was spoken throughout Britain when the Romans arrived. But Dr. Oppenheimer argues that the absence of Celtic place names in England — words for places are particularly durable — makes this unlikely.

    If the people of the British Isles hold most of their genetic heritage in common, with their differences consisting only of a regional flavoring of Celtic in the west and of northern European in the east, might that perception draw them together? Geneticists see little prospect that their findings will reduce cultural and political differences.

    The Celtic cultural myth “is very entrenched and has a lot to do with the Scottish, Welsh and Irish identity; their main identifying feature is that they are not English,” said Dr. Sykes, an Englishman who has traced his Y chromosome and surname to an ancestor who lived in the village of Flockton in Yorkshire in 1286.

    Dr. Oppenheimer said genes “have no bearing on cultural history.” There is no significant genetic difference between the people of Northern Ireland, yet they have been fighting with each other for 400 years, he said.

    As for his thesis that the British and Irish are genetically much alike, “It would be wonderful if it improved relations, but I somehow think it won’t.”
    Best regards,

    Jake
    [B]Less talk, more monkey![/B]

  2. #2
    An t-Ileach's Avatar
    An t-Ileach is offline Oops, it seems this member needs to update their email address
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    This is all very well, but what divides us from the English is language, culture, and history: blood is less important (other than spilling it, I suppose) otherwise there wouldn't be such a bitter stand-off still after all these centuries between MacDonalds and Campbells, for example.

  3. #3
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    Interesting how they talk about the linguistic analysis done by a geneticist as if it is supposed to hold some weight. Even the most ardent advocate of the Teutonic influences on Old English will tend to wither and buckle when pressed to admit the existence of the Gaelic languages-at least those in the field of language. I really don't want to get too political, but this seems to be just another attempt to try and say that there is only one race of Europeans so that racists feel better about lumping everyone with light skin together.

  4. #4
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    Hmmm. I have to wonder if this thread will bring anyone together or if it will have the tendency to drive folks apart.

    As someone who is a mixture of Celt, Angle, Germanic, Saxon and whatever else I do agree that the genetics of Great Britain are so well mixed that they will come across as similar. Goodness only knows what blood courses through my veins.

    I do however IDENTIFY as a celt and more specifically as a Scot. I cannot deny that my ancestry is more mongrel dog than anything else. I really don’t think there are too many left that can claim pure celtic ancestry and I”m not even sure what that means.

    This is NOT (read again NOT ) meant in any way political (as in our unique situation I’d really like to leave politics behind) but the political differences that to this day still exist in the British Isles may or may not have anything to do with genetics but more with location and arguements about such.

    I don’t think that anyone out there can argue in 2007 that over the last eon all our peoples have mixed. That many of our differences began with Edward I and have continued across the rule of many different dynasties is incontrovertable. The reality is that the common man really doesn’t have an issue with his neighbors these days.

    Ireland is divided over religion as were the British Isles for centuries. Can’t we put his behind us? Scotland and England are divided over politics that were put in motion by my own ancestors - the Stewarts - who were notoriously inept rulers.

    Can we not just put all this behind us and come together for the betterment of the nation? Ok, I’m not a British citizen but for pete’s sake can’t we all work together without adding fuel to the fire by aggrandizing the “genetic” differences or similarities of our peoples??

    For heaven’s sake, we have enough issues in the States and in Britain with the “melting pot” idea without having to go back 445 years to bring up old and quite frankly irrelevant “racial” differences? That was politics too.
    Last edited by starbkjrus; 5th March 07 at 06:37 PM.
    Dee

    Ferret ad astra virtus

  5. #5
    Kilted KT is offline Membership Revoked for repeated rule violations.
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    this isn't another attempt to grab up all the good scotch, is it?

  6. #6
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    Was Adam And Eve celtic? Or for those of us that lean the other way, when my dolphin ancestors took to the land were they celtic? I don't know the history of the MacDonalds & the Campbells but could it not have been started by two individuals that disliked each other?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by starbkjrus View Post
    Hmmm. I have to wonder if this thread will bring anyone together or if it will have the tendency to drive folks apart.

    As someone who is a mixture of Celt, Angle, Germanic, Saxon and whatever else I do agree that the genetics of Great Britain are so well mixed that they will come across as similar. Goodness only knows what blood courses through my veins.

    I do however IDENTIFY as a celt and more specifically as a Scot. I cannot deny that my ancestry is more mongrel dog than anything else. I really don’t think there are too many left that can claim pure celtic ancestry and I”m not even sure what that means.

    This is NOT (read again NOT ) meant in any way political (as in our unique situation I’d really like to leave politics behind) but the political differences that to this day still exist in the British Isles may or may not have anything to do with genetics but more with location and arguements about such.

    I don’t think that anyone out there can argue in 2007 that over the last eon all our peoples have mixed. That many of our differences began with Edward I and have continued across the rule of many different dynasties is incontrovertable. The reality is that the common man really doesn’t have an issue with his neighbors these days.

    Ireland is divided over religion as were the British Isles for centuries. Can’t we put his behind us? Scotland and England are divided over politics that were put in motion by my own ancestors - the Stewarts - who were notoriously inept rulers.

    Can we not just put all this behind us and come together for the betterment of the nation? Ok, I’m not a British citizen but for pete’s sake can’t we all work together without adding fuel to the fire by aggrandizing the “genetic” differences or similarities of our peoples??

    For heaven’s sake, we have enough issues in the States and in Britain with the “melting pot” idea without having to go back 445 years to bring up old and quite frankly irrelevant “racial” differences? That was politics too.
    BRAVO! Oh, so well said, Dee. I am also part Celt and part Saxon (although I know nothing of my family, on either side, beyond my grandparents) and, like the majoirty of people in these British Isles, I consider us to be one united nation, and long may we remain so.

    What happened in the past should remain in the past - and that should be the case the world over.
    [B][I][U]No. of Kilts[/U][/I][/B][I]:[/I] 102.[I] [B]"[U][B]Title[/B]"[/U][/B][/I]: Lord Hamish Bicknell, Laird of Lochaber / [B][U][I]Life Member:[/I][/U][/B] The Scottish Tartans Authority / [B][U][I]Life Member:[/I][/U][/B] The Royal Scottish Country Dance Society / [U][I][B]Member:[/B][/I][/U] The Ardbeg Committee / [I][B][U]My NEW Photo Album[/U]: [/B][/I][COLOR=purple]Sadly, and with great regret, it seems my extensive and comprehensive album may now have been lost forever![/COLOR]/

  8. #8
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    I think this is an attempt to make the English not feel so bad about the Irish putting a hurting on them in the rugby six nations last weekend.

  9. #9
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    All this talk about Saxon violence...


  10. #10
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    I happen to be Scots, Welsh, Dutch, German, Polish, Austrian, Danish, French, Native American, Jewish, Rom, and Irish. (And I no doubt missed something in that list) It's the Irish I identify with.

    I don't know that there's any political motivation behind academics' quarreling about the origins of the Gaels vs. the Saxons. Academics like to quarrel. They don't need any particular reason.
    - The Beertigger
    "The only one, since 1969."

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