A question for our Irish kiltie brothers

[flairball]

As St.Paddy's day grows closer I've been thinking about something I'd like clarified. I've read it many times here before that many people wear a kilt to honor/celebrate their culture. If you are Irish, or Irish/American, please explain what it is about the kilt that represents your culture.

As I understand it, the kilt doesn't really have anything to do, culturally with Ireland. Seems to be the kilt is culturally identified as Scottish, and Welsh. My understanding is that district tartans weren't developed until the 1950's, so, if you wear a district tartan is the significance in the tartan, or that it's been made into a kilt? The Irish regiments wore tartan kilts to differentiate themselves was my understanding also, so, wearing one of those tartans, or Saffron would be a celebration of a military tradition, no?


Either way, I don't really care why one wears a kilt, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory. I just seem to be missing something, so I thought I'd ask.

[Roan Carter]

I'm sure someone is going to come in with greater knowledge than I have on the subject. But for the sake of expediancy, I'll deliver to you what I believe on the subject.

The Scotti, whom Scotland is named after, were a group from Ireland.

The Irish have many tartans for their counties, and for some Irish surnames. These are from the last hundred or so years.

Irish military pipers wear "Saffron" kilts to this day. These kilts are solid mustardy/orange/brownish in color, and I believe they are from times of old.

Northern Ireland is inhabited by the Ulster Scots. Many of these people, although lowlanders by origin, have tartans and clan associations.

Someone with a broader knowledge of history should explain the Irish/kilt association with a bit of history better than I can ...

[Woodsheal]

Simply put, the kilt as we now know it evolved in the Scottish highlands, period. Later, it was embraced by Scottish lowlanders as well, as the national garment of that country.
In more recent years it has been adopted as a "pan-celtic" garment, though historically, of course, it isn't. Some Irish nationalists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries were kilt wearers, it being a symbol of anti-English "celticness", I suppose.
Others know the history of Irish kilt use as it relates to military units and pipe bands better than I do....

[macwilkin]

The kilt wasn't really adopted by the Irish until the late 19th century; Irish nationalists seeking a way to distinguish themselves from their "West Britain" opponents adopted Highland attire as a way to return to their "Gaelic" past, even though the kilt really wasn't a part of it; Patrick Pearse, the leader of the 1916 Easter Rebellion, adopted a kilt as a uniform for his boy's school, and other rebel leaders, such as Thomas Ashe and The O'Rahilly wore kilts.

At the same time, the Irish regiments of the British Army began outfitting their pipers in Highland attire, producing the saffron kilt and the "traditional" Irish pipers attire. The kilt was later adopted by the new armed forces of the Irish Free State and later, the Irish Republic.

So it was an odd mix of Irish nationalists and the Irish regiments of the British Army that gave us the custom of the Irish wearing kilts today. :mrgreen:

Of course, there are many cultural connections between Eire and Alba; some historians believe that St. Patrick was born in Dumbarton, Scotland (others say Wales), and the two countries share another famous saint, Columba (right, Graham?) -- and then there's the galoglass, the West Highland mercenaries who fought in Ireland, the Kingdom of the Scots, Dalraida -- I could go on an on.

Regards,

Todd

[Graywolf]

Having done a bit of research, especially using data gathered from an esteemed member's column.

The kilt is Scottish in origin, probably 500 yrs old. The Irish, and hence the Scoti, who migrated to Scotland in 300-400 AD wore the leine, a long tunic. This was typically saffron colored, possibly due to washing in iron pots.

The kilt cam later, as wool become more available and its water shedding properties appreciated.

[Scott Gilmore]

... Northern Ireland is inhabited by the Ulster Scots. Many of these people, although lowlanders by origin, have tartans and clan associations. ...

A great many were highland Scots who emigrated to Ulster because of economic pressures. My father's family, originally crofters from the Outer Hebrides, moved first to County Down and then later to North America.

Having said that, on a personal note, I celebrate the Irish holiday of St. Patrick's day not for religious or certainly separatist/loyalist reasons, but for how Ireland as a whole has evolved. I respect and admire the Irish resurgence from its semi-recent virtual third-world origins to contemporary economic success; Irish culture (at least as I perceive it, having never {yet} visited) possesses in abundance many social qualities I deeply admire and that contrast starkly with American social conditions; and lastly, to be perfectly frank, I feel an ethnic-cultural link-whether real or perceived-with which I identify deeply.

Happy St. Patrick's day one and all!
.

[macwilkin]

Northern Ireland is inhabited by the Ulster Scots. Many of these people, although lowlanders by origin, have tartans and clan associations.

A caveat needs to be added to this statement, though: the original Ulster-Scots who came from the Lowlands would not have had tartans and clan associations; Lowland and Border families have adopted tartans and formed "clan" societies, but only after the "tartan craze" of the 19th century. When the plantation of Ulster was first settled, Lowlanders and Bordereres would have held Highlanders and anything associated with them in about as low regard as they did the "wild" Irish.

As Scott mentioned, you do have some Highlanders that settle in Ulster, though. You also have English, Welsh, and even some contientials, such as the German Palantines and French Protestants.

Regards,

Todd

[ckelly327]

I just think that with the above historical statements that you can accept the kilt as part of the Irish culture since it has been adopted for over 100 years in Ireland regardless if it was first fashioned in the Highlands or not. There are a wide variety of family tartans now for the Irish. My Irish friends and I usually consider the kilt to be a pan-celtic garment whether that is historically (more than 200 years ago) accurate statement or not. We have seen in other threads the amount of intermingling in the Celtic Isles that I don't see how any Scot could take offense that the Irish enjoy the kilt too.

If it doesn't snow too much here tonight there will be about 20 Irishmen from my division of the Ancient Order of Hibernians marching in the parade in our kilts tomorrow.

[Woodsheal]

[QUOTE=ckelly327;346359]I just think that with the above historical statements that you can accept the kilt as part of the Irish culture since it has been adopted for over 100 years in Ireland regardless if it was first fashioned in the Highlands or not. There are a wide variety of family tartans now for the Irish. My Irish friends and I usually consider the kilt to be a pan-celtic garment whether that is historically (more than 200 years ago) accurate statement or not. We have seen in other threads the amount of intermingling in the Celtic Isles that I don't see how any Scot could take offense that the Irish enjoy the kilt too.

QUOTE]

Agreed! Only a few hard-core traditionalists have a problem with the "pan-celtic" concept. Irish usage, as you say, now has a solid century of history behind it, so "Irish kilts" should be an acceptable reality to all. (I only object to folks twisting history and claiming an Irish origin to kilts.)

FYI, I have more Irish heritage than Scottish and wear an Irish tartan - "Forde." My ancestors of that name emigrated from Ireland in the 1890's. So, I'd have a serious problem with someone objecting to Irish kilts, too...!

[macwilkin]

Agreed! Only a few hard-core traditionalists have a problem with the "pan-celtic" concept. Irish usage, as you say, now has a solid century of history behind it, so "Irish kilts" should be an acceptable reality to all. (I only object to folks twisting history and claiming an Irish origin to kilts.)

I think that's a very reasonable statement, to be sure. This "hard-core traditionalist" can agree to everything you said, Brian.

Cheers,

Todd