A tartan conundrum.

[Woodsheal]

Bob,

Matt's explanation clears things up considerably, if you ask me. Since David ______ has NOT made the claim that was troubling you - "head of the family" - and since you do like the new tartan, I'd say go for it and wear it proudly! That additional fact that Mr Cairns is a serious supporter of Scottish culture and historic preservation should make you feel better, too....

[macwilkin]

Bob,

Matt's explanation clears things up considerably, if you ask me. Since David ______ has NOT made the claim that was troubling you - "head of the family" - and since you do like the new tartan, I'd say go for it and wear it proudly! That additional fact that Mr Cairns is a serious supporter of Scottish culture and historic preservation should make you feel better, too....

I have to second this; Matt's post certainly sheds some light on the subject, to be sure. Bob, have you contacted Mr. ______? I think you might want to, sounds like he of "our ilk" in promoting Scottish heritage.

Like Brian said, I would have no concerns wearing this tartan given the updated information.

Cheers,

Todd

[Warlock]

Save your pennies and design your own! Make it "family name Hunting" or "Family Name Dress" or "Family Name Variant" or "Family Name of California (or whatever state you're from)... no reason 1 family can't have MORE than 1 tartan.

Congratulations! On creating your new tartan. This rather long email contains all the information you might need to turn your design into reality! In particular this email talks about registration. You can look at more information about different fabrics online .

REGISTERING YOUR NEW TARTAN

When applying for registration, we like to provide some explanation of the design, in what is called the "rationale" of the design. This might include the tartans on which the design is based, as many new designs are intended as variations of existing Clan tartans. It might also include the idea that prompted the design, like a wedding or an anniversary.

The registrar also needs to know if you intend to keep the copyright of the pattern. In the UK and many countries worldwide, this right is automatic - so long as you can prove the date and origin of your work. However, some tartan designers have a different intention. They actively want as many people as possible to share the tartan as a mark of family identity. In this case, you must indicate that the tartan may be freely woven and worn.

Here are some of the more important considerations which can be found at the Scottish Tartans Authority website.

Registration requires two samples of fabric 18 x 12 inches, so the registration cannot be completed until the fabric is woven. It is important to take account of this when calculating the length you require.
The name of the tartan must not conflict with any Scottish armigerous family. If there is a Coat of Arms for a family or clan name already in existence, then the designer of the new tartan must seek the approval of the chief of the 'whole name' before adopting the name for the new tartan. A similar rule applies to the names of District Tartans. A City Council or State Legislature should endorse the naming of a new tartan.
Clients can register the tartan themselves by applying directly to the Scottish Tartans Authority (registration@tartansauthority.com ) and paying the appropriate fee of GBP 85.
WOOL FABRICS AND KILTS

Worsted: A fine, smooth, firm, compact yarn spun of tightly twisted wool fibers.

Worsted 510g (15oz) heavyweight wool cloth is made especially for kilts. The minimum order is 5 metres (5.5 yards approx) and you would require 7.33 metres (8 yards) single width for a traditional kilt. Single width fabric is 72cms (28 inches) in width, and double width fabric is 1.42 metres (56 inches) in width. Approximate delivery time 8/10 weeks.

WORSTED 'SAMPLE PIECE' Package - GBP 492 (US$ 892) Total cost (excluding duties and taxes).
House of Tartan completes the whole process for you including :-

Registration of your design including submission of sample fabric pieces. GBP 85
Preparation of the Weavers Ticket, GBP 80
10 metre length of worsted wool - mediumweight or heavyweight. GBP 334
Fabric Width 71cms (28 inches)

WORSTED SAMPLE WITH KILT Package - GBP 562 (US$ 1020) (excluding duties and taxes).
Includes:-

Weavers ticket based on your design GBP 80
10 metre length of worsted wool - mediumweight or heavyweight. GBP 337
Handmade traditional kilt, makeup only GBP 145
* Optional extras - £85 to register your tartan with the Scottish Tartan Authority – see ‘Registering your new Tartan’.

WORSTED BULK ORDER Packages

10 metres (11 yards) double width @ GBP 65 / metre GBP 650 (US$ 1179)
15 metres (16.5 yards) double width @ GBP 48.83 / metre GBP 732 (US$ 1328)
25 metres (27 yards) double width @ GBP 32.80 / metre GBP 820 (US$ 1487)
58 metres (1 piece) double width @ GBP 26.95 / metre GBP 1563 (US$ 2835)
* Optional extras - + £85 to register your tartan with the Scottish Tartan Authority – see ‘Registering your new Tartan’

I hope this information is helpful and I look forward to hearing from you.

Warmest regards from
Maxine.

HOUSE of TARTAN (in conjuntion with the SCOTTISH TARTANS AUTHORITY)

Notes:
UK and EU VAT fiscal area customers. VAT is not shown in the prices quoted
Import duties and taxes may be applied in countries outside the European Community.
US$ guide prices are calculated at $1.85 to GBP 1.00. This price is liable to fluctuate.



Goodness knows the Frasers have around 25!

[Bob C]

In two separate PMs, Matt described David ______ as "the titled head of the family"
and "the ranking guy." If those descriptions are Matt's and not the Baron's, then I stand corrected on that point.

David ______' use of the Lindsay colors because those are the people from whom he bought the title supports the argument that the tartan should have been named "______ of Finavon." the same goes for his use of a stripe from the color of the arms he bought. His nod to his Black Watch ancestors is admirable, but much more suited to a personal tartan than to one that purportedly represents a very diverse family.

______ of that Ilk is an ancient clan, considered to be an armigerous family since the chief line died out. As I said in my earlier post, there has been an Earl of ______ since the 1800s, since Hugh ______ was given that title after serving as Lord Chancellor in the Disraeli government. **LINK REMOVED TO GUARD SURNAME**

I would expect the Baron of Finavon to mention that fact or that Matt would have found it during his research.

When the first Earl ______ created his arms, he incorporated those of ______ of that Ilk - a nice nod to our history. He probably did not bother with a tartan because we were a lowland clan and never had one. I rather wish he had. I find his right to do so far more legitimate than that of the Baron of Finavon though, had I been born 100 years earlier, I would not have supported Earl ______' politics.

I have not contacted the Baron of Finavon. if I decide to do so, it will be to tell him how offended I am by his pretension. It's probably better to just not bother. There's nothing I can do to change it.

On another note, thanks to Matt, you all know my surname, now. I'd have preferred not to have made that public, but it is what it is.

[gilmore]

When a private individual creates a new tartan for his family name, unless he has some authority to speak for the name, it is only recorded as a "personal" tartan. For instance, if I designed a "Newsome" tartan, it would be considered a personal tartan. This doesn't prevent anyone from wearing it who wants to, but it simply recognizes that I don't have any more authority to declare a tartan for all Newsomes than Bob Newsome from Ontario or Jim Newsome from Tazmania.

David C___, being an actial Scottish Baron, has a bit more status in this regard, so his tartan can truly be considered a "family tartan."


The C___ tartan that I designed for the Baron of F___ was based on elements of Mr. C___s' family history as he supplied the details to me. The Barony, according to him, originally belonged to the Crawford family, so he wanted elements of the Lindsay/Crawford tartan to be involved to honor them. His father and uncle served in the Black Watch regiment, so elements of that tartan are incorporated. Colors from his Arms are also used....

I just want to be clear in this posting that D____ C___, Baron of F____, had never to me made any claims to be head of the worldwide C___ name, and simply wanted to have a tartan "for my family and to be available for any of the name C___ or a derivative" (his own words). I am very sorry if I at all misrepresented his position in my correspondence with Bob C.

Aye,
Matt

The man in question is not a Scottish baron. He is a feudal baron, the owner of a curious anomaly in Scottish and UK law.

Barons are peers who are entitled to sit in the House of Lords, subject to election. Feudal barons are NOT peers and were entitled to sit in the Parliament of Scotland several hundred years ago, when Scotland was a kingdom.

Barons are styled "Lord XXXX." Feudal barons are styled "Laird of XXXX."

Under accepted custom, the person in question has no more status in creating a tartan for a family name than anyone else who is not the chief or chieftain of a clan.

According to Guy Star Sainty, an authority on heraldry:

"...it is true that Scottish
feudal Baronies can be acquired by purchase. Furthermore, unlike any
other purchased title, provided the proper forms are followed (i.e.
provided the purchaser has matriculated arms in Scotland, and properly records
the acquisition with the lord Lyon), this is a genuine title of nobility.
[emphasis added]...

Scottish [feudal] baronies, however, have always been bought and sold and although
some were granted by the Crown to X and his descendants male, or some such,
the subsequent holders were able to alienate them legally. Their proper
acquisition, following the correct procedures, entitles the holder
to the title itself, as Baron of X... and his wife to be Baroness of X...,
and although a female who acquires a Barony becomes a Baroness, her husband
would not become a Baron. It also entitles the holder to precedence in
Scotland after Queen's Counsels and before Esquires and Gentlemen ...They also entitle the holder to certain heraldic privileges in Scotland.


There is no difference in my opinion whether such a [feudal] barony was acquired by
purchase in 2000, 1900, or 1800. Scottish feudalism was by this time
merely nominal anyway, and the privileges of the barons have not changed
in the last 200 years. Its legality and validity remain the same anyway.

[This was seemingly written before the Abolition of Feudal Tenures Act of 2004 when all forms of feudal holding of land were abolished and the holding of a feudal barony became a mere style, disassociated with land ownership or any other substantive rights and privileges.]

The only question you must ask is whether you actually believe such an
investment is worthwhile - in the sense that these limited privileges
are worth $40,000. You would be entitled to be the A(Your name) of Y...
(the Barony), and your children, should you have any, N (first name)
A (last name) of Y... Do you care? Would they care? Would your friends
be impressed by your transformation, or would they speculate as to
your good-sense in spending $40,000 on such a vanity? "


So, one would think that the tartan in question here should already be called "C___ of F___," since that is the proper style of the person who had it designed.

We are talking about the elaborations of two or three different forms of society and three different kinds of status, and then conflating them.

Under (the vestiges of) the CLAN system, with which tartans are traditionally associated, it is the chief of the clan or the chieftan of a sept who decides what a tartan will be for those who are associated with his or her clan or sept. This is an "ancient" custom dating all the way back to the early to mid 19th century when the idea of clan tartans was invented by wool mill owners and kilt merchants and foisted upon a newly rich middle class nostalgic for, but largely ignorant of, its rural past.

Under the FEUDAL system, which was introduced into Scotland later than the clan system, a person may hold land in fief from the king or sometimes from a great noble, and was known as a feudal baron. It would not be too inaccuarate to characterize feudal barons as simply the landlords of their day. It is these who are the subject of our discussion here.

In the PEERAGE a baron is the lowest rank, below viscounts. And as you can see from Mr Sainty's description above, the holders of feudal baronies rank far below barons in order of precedence, immediately below the goverment's lawyers who prosecute crimes.

I know this can appear complicated, but to clarify one's understanding, see: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...rch+this+group

or try this message board: http://scotshistoryonline.co.uk/HSSforum/index.php

[gilmore]

C____ of that Ilk is an ancient clan, considered to be an armigerous family since the chief line died out. As I said in my earlier post, there has been an Earl of C____ since the 1800s, since Hugh C was given that title after serving as Lord Chancellor in the Disraeli government.


On another note,... you all know my surname, now. I'd have preferred not to have made that public, but it is what it is.

There is a way to create an authentic clan tartan, though it is circuitous and costly: create an authentic clan!

The procedure is set out here on the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs website: http://www.clanchiefs.org/clans_search.html

and here on the Lyon Court website: http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/l...CC&p_service=C

It is a long and expensive process, requiring either the hiring of genealogists to find the heir of the last chief, or the granting of arms, the holding of a derbhfine of the armigers, the naming of a commander and finally the recognition of a chief.

The cost would probably be in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars or pounds. However, I have a suggestion: ask the tartan mills and kilt merchants to fund it! After all, it is they who stand to make the greatest profit off this enterprise, selling your heritage back to you at $80 per yard.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Bob,

I apologize for revealing your last name to the board, I honestly had no idea that you were attempting to keep it anonymous. Probably because I already knew the tartan you were talking about, it did not even dawn on me until I went back and re-read it just now that you never actually named the tartan in your first post. I should have picked up on that, so I'm sorry.

I just edited me previous post and this one to omit any reference to the name -- if others would like to please do the same this would maintain Bob C.'s requested anonymity. Thanks.

Secondly, if you do choose to contact David C_____, please don't do so just to tell him how pretentous you think he is. If you've never spoken to him, on what do you form your opinion? Like I said in my previous post, the confusion over him being "titled head of family" was due solely to an error on my part, which I have duly retracted. It is not a claim he has ever made.

And please don't think that all people who purchase these kinds of titles are pretentious title-seekers. I don't know the circumstances of David C_____'s acquisition of the title, so I think it is horribly unfair to assume poor intentions. I know another "bought baron" who scraped up enough family money to buy the baronial title that was for sale in his ancestral homeland so that the title could remain with a local family and not be bought by someone with no connection to the region. He's very much involved in Scottish history, culture, and heraldry, and is a stand-up gent. So not all "bought barons" are deserving of this kind of negative sentiment.

What it boils down to is this. Anyone can design a tartan, or commission a tartan to be designed for them. It happens all the time. However, the only one who has the authority to proclaim in an official capacity what is and is not an authorized tartan is the person who has authority over whatever the tartan is for (the cheif of a clan, the CEO of a corporation, etc.) This being the case, the vast majority[ of tartans out there are, in a strict sense, fashion tartans or personal tartans. (Even some common, traditional tartans -- for instance my own clan MacQuarrie hasn't had a cheif in over 200 years and so has never had any "official" tartan, despite there being several well recognized tartans for the clan).

David C_____, Baron of _____, like so many other people interested in their Scottish heritage, has commissioned a new tartan for his name where there was none before. Whether it ultimately gets designated "C____ of _____," or just "C____," or whether it is recorded by the STA as a family tartan or a personal tartan, is ultimately up to the STA, as they maintain the records. And it may change over time!

These things are not set in stone, to be certain!

I just want to make sure that David C_____, whom I assume from my correspondence with him to be a decent, honest man with good intentions, is not maligned in this public forum based on suppositions and assumptions. Especially since he is only guilty of doing what many good members of this forum have been congradulated for doing in the past -- wanting to add to the Highland Dress tradition by creating a new tartan for his name.

Aye,
Matt

[Bob C]

Whether it ultimately gets designated "C____ of _____," or just "C____," or whether it is recorded by the STA as a family tartan or a personal tartan, is ultimately up to the STA, as they maintain the records.

A letter of complaint to the STA will probably have no effect, but I'm thinking I'll write one, anyway. What's to lose?

[cessna152towser]

A letter of complaint to the STA will probably have no effect, but I'm thinking I'll write one, anyway. What's to lose?

Now that Matt Newsome has explained the position, I really can't see what there is to complain about. Baron C____ wanted to create a tartan to honour his family's heritage and for that he deserves to be congratulated. The Baron may have recognised the fact that there was no previous C_____ tartan and the fact that he came up first with the idea of creating and registering one shouldn't offend other members of the C____ family name, and I feel sure the Baron of Finavon would not have expected anyone to take offence at the idea. As Matt has said, whether it becomes known as C______ tartan or C_______ of Finavon will ultimately be a matter for the STA. I wouldn't take offence or lose sleep over it Bob, and if you like the tartan you should get yourself a kilt in that tartan and wear it with pride.

[macwilkin]

Now that Matt Newsome has explained the position, I really can't see what there is to complain about. Baron C____ wanted to create a tartan to honour his family's heritage and for that he deserves to be congratulated. The Baron may have recognised the fact that there was no previous C_____ tartan and the fact that he came up first with the idea of creating and registering one shouldn't offend other members of the C____ family name, and I feel sure the Baron of Finavon would not have expected anyone to take offence at the idea. As Matt has said, whether it becomes known as C______ tartan or C_______ of Finavon will ultimately be a matter for the STA. I wouldn't take offence or lose sleep over it Bob, and if you like the tartan you should get yourself a kilt in that tartan and wear it with pride.

I have to second this statement; Ultimately, Bob, if you don't feel comfortable wearing the tartan because of your take on the reasons behind it, then you are free not to wear it, or to adopt your own tartan in honour of your family. It's as simple as that.

Or, why not talk to the gentleman, as Matt suggested, and express your concerns in a reasonable and rational manner? He may have never considered, as C152T suggested, that anyone would take offence at his efforts.

And of course, no offence is meant towards you, Bob. Just my "twa bob" on the subject, which you did ask for at the beginning of the thread.

Regards,

Todd